Was the Sabbath kept before God gave the Ten Commandments?

Biblstudy.org ^ | unknown | Sabbath Research Center

[freedumb2003]

Getting the right speeder is always a problem... ;)

[240B]

Did Abraham or Noah keep kosher?

[DouglasKC]

Did Abraham or Noah keep kosher?

I believe they knew the clean and unclean food designations and didn't eat unclean. For example:

Gen 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

If by "kosher" you mean the traditions and rules built up by the Jewish religion over time then probably not.

[240B]

Thank you. I have a couple of good ones for you concerning Rabbinic kasrut.

When Yitzak was in the tent, Esu went hunting to bring him meat. You cannot shecht a deer with an arrow or a spear.

Avraham served the shalosh hanalachim hema v basar (butter and meat)

Al tevashel gedi ba HALAV emo (do not cook a kid in it’s mother’s milk) could also read, HELEV emo (womb of the mother)

It is forbidden to eat the egg and the hen. However today it is very possible to eat the egg and the hen. How could you know?

Anyway, just a few for your consideration.

Thanks again

[Star Traveler]

You said — I love you philo-Semitic Fundamentalist Protestants...

—

You can save yourself some typing by just saying “Christians”... LOL...

As far as Christianity being neither Biblical or Jewish, well..., I just don’t know where to start on that one. For some reason, I kept thinking that it sounded similar to saying that the Pope wasn’t Catholic... You know..., you just don’t know where to start with that one.

I think I’ll have to go back to the Bible see what the Apostle Paul and the other Apostles said...

[DouglasKC]

And there's where you jump the track.
"Biblically speaking" and "chr*stianity" simply don't go together.

Sometimes looking at modern Christianity and comparing it to the scripture it may seem that way.

[DouglasKC]

Israel's mission is to compel the nations of the world to observe the Seven Noachide Laws. And those laws forbid complete Shabbat observance, as Jews practice it, to non-Jews.

Does scripture tell you this or does tradition tell you this?

[freeplancer]

“God knows. The seven day week has not been broken since the time of Moses.”

You people are funny when you act like you know what many scholars still don’t know. Maybe that is why there are hundreds of “christian” denominations who can’t agree on “what the bible says”.

[DouglasKC]

You people are funny when you act like you know what many scholars still don’t know. Maybe that is why there are hundreds of “christian” denominations who can’t agree on “what the bible says”.

There certainly is a lot of confusion in Christianity, but that's not God's fault. It's source lies elsewhere:

1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

But concerning the 7th day sabbath it's pretty clear when it is:

Exo 16:23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, Tomorrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake today, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

Israel was told when the sabbath was. Since then it's been preserved throughout the centuries, mostly by the Jewish religion.

[onedoug]

I think too: When did you begin to observe it? In a real sense, that’s it’s true beginning.

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

*** Maybe that is why there are hundreds of “christian” denominations who can’t agree on “what the bible says”.***

MORMON ALERT! MORMON ALERT!

[DouglasKC]

To most folks, Genesis being the first book would make it look like it was written first, but when it dawned on me that Moses wrote that book and wrote it for people whose base of reference would be founded in the Law of God, then the references Moses makes to Abraham "keeping His commandments, His statutes, His ordinances" means that the reader is expected to understand that to mean Abraham kept the Law! This is huge, because there are so many references to the Law in Genesis that I previously did not notice. For me, there can be no doubt that there was Law prior to Sinai and that Law included the Sabbath.

Good point that bears repeating Chris. Thank you so much and you have a great sabbath too!

[DouglasKC]

When Yitzak was in the tent, Esu went hunting to bring him meat. You cannot shecht a deer with an arrow or a spear.

Thank you for pointing that out. It forced me to study a little bit more last night and this morning into "kosher" rules. If I read them right then any animal to be eaten would have had to have been killed with a perfectly sharp knife used to basically cut the throat and bleed out.

Avraham served the shalosh hanalachim hema v basar (butter and meat)

Thank you again for your insight and for making me study. sure enough eating dairy and meat together is forbidden under kosher rules yet:

Gen 18:8 And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.

Al tevashel gedi ba HALAV emo (do not cook a kid in it’s mother’s milk) could also read, HELEV emo (womb of the mother),

That's an interesting point. Do you have further reference on it?

It is forbidden to eat the egg and the hen. However today it is very possible to eat the egg and the hen. How could you know?

Can you explain this more? I don't know what you're referring to.

Thanks!

[dangus]

I readily accept the notion that Adam would have rested on the Sabbath. Since the Sabbath was created for Mankind (how I would translate "the man" is to regard Man as a whole), than unfallen Man certainly would receive its benefits. But from there, the cascade of unfounded presumptions is breathtaking.

• "Unless the Sabbath was their pivot of time, people then could not have used such a measure of days."

  The article scarcely makes the case that people did... but to simply assert something could not have happened, unless one possible cause is true is simply illogical. The removal of a known condition does not mean that a conclusion cannot occur. IOW, if A->B doesn't mean ~B->~A. But did people have such a measure of days? This argument isn't made:

• "No details are given of the creed of Abraham, but . . . it must have included all that was true in the popular beliefs of Chaldea. This would imply his knowledge of the Sabbath; for the seventh day, by a tradition handed down from Eden, was 'holy' in his Eastern native land, and was honored by the cessation of all work on it."

  Really? Fallen man couldn't possibly forget the ordinations of God?

• "In Genesis 7:4 and 8:10 and 12 we see that Noah was acquainted with a seven-day week. Unless the Sabbath was their pivot of time, people then could not have used such a measure of days. In fact, the marginal rendering of Genesis 7:10 is "on the seventh day," a reference to nothing but the Sabbath. We may be sure that Noah, a just man who walked with God (Genesis 6:9), knew about and kept God's seventh-day Sabbath."

  In Genesis 7:4, God tells Noah that it will rain in 7 days. It does make the point that God was keeping the Sabbath. But did Noah get that the 7th day was the 7th day of creation? The article supposes that Noah is onto the notion of a Sabbath by waiting every 7 days to send out a bird. Does he? He does so 230 days later. You could argue as few as 227 days later. But if the first day is a Saturday, that range of dates gives you from anywhere from a Tuesday to a Friday.

• The words "in process of time" are translated from the Hebrew mikkets yamim, meaning "at the end of the days." This can only be telling us that on the Sabbath, Cain and Abel, with the rest of Adam's family, gathered to worship God.

  Really? I agree that Adam's family would probably have worshiped on Saturday.

• Yes, when God says in Exodus 20:8 to "Remember the Sabbath day," He is referring to something Israel already knew, or they could not have "remembered" it. Sir Charles Marston writes: "The very word 'Remember' presupposes that the Sabbath day was already in existence . . . ."

  Huh? If I say, "Honey, I need you to remember this: I'm going to be at the clerk's office if anyone calls," did my wife already know that?

What's going on here?

The most informative part of the article is this: The evidence is now complete, irrefutable, and satisfying to any honest mind. The author hasn't begun to make his case. But if you aren't convinced by it, anyway, you're a liar. That's what is going on here. The author is trying leverage his own credibility into slamming your mind shut on all other notions. After all, if someone is a liar, it'd be morally hazardous to listen to him.

[dangus]

Actually, as I think about it, the part about Noah is very telling, and very problematic for Adventists. Noah catches on to a seven day pattern, but can’t possibly be syncing his pattern to God’s, since his pattern’s period isn’t a multiple of seven from God’s.

[DeLaine]

We simply read the Bible and observe history. It’s not rocket science. I can’t be responsible for what so called “scholars” put forth.

[DouglasKC]

I readily accept the notion that Adam would have rested on the Sabbath. Since the Sabbath was created for Mankind (how I would translate "the man" is to regard Man as a whole), than unfallen Man certainly would receive its benefits. But from there, the cascade of unfounded presumptions is breathtaking.

I actually agree that the writing style leaves a lot to be desired. That's why I commented about "nuggets". You have to dig to find them, but they are there.

In Genesis 7:4, God tells Noah that it will rain in 7 days. It does make the point that God was keeping the Sabbath. But did Noah get that the 7th day was the 7th day of creation? The article supposes that Noah is onto the notion of a Sabbath by waiting every 7 days to send out a bird. Does he? He does so 230 days later. You could argue as few as 227 days later. But if the first day is a Saturday, that range of dates gives you from anywhere from a Tuesday to a Friday.

I agree. Although it's possible I thought it was a pretty weak argument to claim it as a certainty.

# The words "in process of time" are translated from the Hebrew mikkets yamim, meaning "at the end of the days." This can only be telling us that on the Sabbath, Cain and Abel, with the rest of Adam's family, gathered to worship God. Really? I agree that Adam's family would probably have worshiped on Saturday.

This was actually pretty credible to me. I did a good study on the phrase and then read commentaries and many do believe this refers to the sabbath worship.

Yes, when God says in Exodus 20:8 to "Remember the Sabbath day," He is referring to something Israel already knew, or they could not have "remembered" it. Sir Charles Marston writes: "The very word 'Remember' presupposes that the Sabbath day was already in existence . . . ." Huh? If I say, "Honey, I need you to remember this: I'm going to be at the clerk's office if anyone calls," did my wife already know that?

There's are other possibilities here for "remember". In Exodus 16 God had instructed Israel on the sabbath. This was possibly weeks before they got to Mt. Sinai where the Lord had uttered the 10 commandments. So he could have said to "remember" in that sense. Or he could have been telling them to remember that the sabbath was created holy in the beginning.

Thanks for your views...

[DouglasKC]

Actually, as I think about it, the part about Noah is very telling, and very problematic for Adventists. Noah catches on to a seven day pattern, but can’t possibly be syncing his pattern to God’s, since his pattern’s period isn’t a multiple of seven from God’s.

I'll do some study on it. I've really only done a cursory read of the authors claim.

[240B]

I better not say anymore(although I could) I am obliged to be careful about what I say.

However, I admire your interest so I will sinfully indulge myself once more.

I will tell you the answer and you have the right to refuse to play and can simply ask me for the answer. This is the question;

What are the two things one can do Biblically written by God Almighty that will guarantee “a long lifespan”?