Hey Jo..., you were answering a question to one of those people who have teachings that are “doctrines of demons” (in connection with the nation of Israel not being significant or prophetic in our time, according to God’s word) and you mentioned me, in referring it to me.
[ Oh..., and about that “expert” thing... LOL..., ummm..., I don’t know if I want to be the “gunslinger” around here... :-). Besides, I do know that there are a whole lot of other real experts that I listen to and use their materials to study up on. I very much more feel like an enthusiastic student, than anything else...]
You said — “However, the last seven weeks of Daniel cannot be fulfilled until the Temple is rebuilt. The clock starts again at that time. That is why Christians watch and pray for Israel. EVERYTHING revolves prophetically around Israel. That is why I posted #242.”
Of course, the post at #242 was — “Daniel’s clock would start to tick and we would instantly
be in the last 7 weeks of the 70 weeks of Daniel.”
That response back to you, from another poster was — “According to many futurists, the clock started ticking in 1948 when Israel was “reborn” as a nation. Were they wrong?”
—
Well, what we’re talking about are *two different things* here. One is the “clock” as you put it, which is a reference to the 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel (weeks being a “set of 7 years”). These were times appointed to Israel. But, the Messiah was cut off after the 69th “week” (of years), and thus Israel “times” were interjected with the “Times of the Gentiles” (which we are in now, and will be until the Times of the Gentiles be fulfilled). And we don’t know how long that is.
The other thing that is talked about is “that generation” being those who see those things that Jesus was talking about. And there were some who may have thought that “this generation” would be at the beginning of that generation for when Israel became a nation again, and that those who were born at that time (in that generation), they would see all these things happen. Well..., I happened to be born in that generation (actually within months of it). So, by what those people were saying, they would say that I would be in *that generation* who would see all those things happen — in other words, I’ll be around to see all those things happen that Jesus said.
That’s what was said by some of those who said that in reference to 1948 and the re-establishment of Israel. But, others have also said that they thought that the generation that was talked about, wasn’t until 1967 when Israel actually did control Jerusalem (by the end of the Six Day War) and that this was the time that marked “this generation”.
Now, as to whether it’s the generation of 1948 or the generation of 1967, there’s no Biblical prophecy that is hanging on either one of those. All that is said is that it’s “this generation” which will see all these things fulfilled.
And..., there is another “viewpoint” on “this generation” (which I don’t abide by) but, it says that “this generation” that Jesus was talking about was the Jews, in that they would not pass away until all these things were fulfilled. But, that doesn’t seem to be as compelling, given the context of what Jesus was saying. But, I can look up discussions about those two different viewpoints, arguing one against the other (but not here and not now...).
I’m going to post that section of Scripture here...
Matthew 24:4-36
4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you.
5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.
6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.
10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.
11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.
12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.
13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand),
16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house.
18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes.
19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.
21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it.
24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
25 See, I have told you beforehand.
26 Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it.
27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near.
33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!
34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.
35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.
I want to note some things here, in terms of whether these events, as Jesus described them, has *already happened* in the past or not. Note...
14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Well..., I would think it would be clear to any *unbiased reader* (that is, unbiased from “doctrines of demons” more specifically) that the gospel has not been preached “in all the world as a witness to all the nations” — either back then or even now.
In fact, I think we have a fulfillment of that prophecy given in Revelation, yet to be in the future. The church has failed to do this. There have been attempts and “claims” that such was done, but it’s not been done to “all the nations” yet... The fulfillment of that comes in Revelation 14.
Revelation 14:6-12
6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people—
7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”
8 And another angel followed, saying, “Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.”
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
—
And so... *there* is your *fulfillment* of what Jesus said — because the Bible gives it to us...
6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people—
AND, in terms of these events that Jesus said would happen, I haven’t heard of anyone reporting, to this date, of this angel giving the “everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people—...”
When I see that, then I’ll know that we’ve seen “that event” that Jesus said would happen. Again, this is *still future*...
—
Another point is...
22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
Well, I haven’t seen anything in history past, which matches our present ability to have “no flesh saved” on this earth. In other words, if these things continued, as Jesus was talking about (i.e., talking about the Tribulation time and the judgments) — that no flesh would be left alive on this earth — so the time was “cut short” (being the time that is given for the Tribulation), instead of being any longer. Any longer and *no one* would be left alive.
I haven’t see that kind of situation in history past for the world. But, now..., it’s definitely possible with what we know. And so, that’s another event that is *yet future*.
—
Another point is...
23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it.
24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
25 See, I have told you beforehand.
26 Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it.
27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
Take a look again...
23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it.
There are those who teach “doctrines of demons” who say that Christ did come “back then” and appeared in the circumstances of what happened then. But, Jesus, very simply says — “do not believe it.”
“They” say, He appeared back then, and that’s the fulfillment of prophecy in the past. Jesus says (implying, if you don’t see me now...) *do not believe it*.
Do you see Jesus now? Your answer would be “No, I don’t see Jesus now...”
But, the answer back will be this — “But, Jesus did come back and He’s now ‘in your heart’ “ (while He is, this as a *fulfillment* of the “prophecy” that Jesus was talking about is *absolute baloney*). And to emphasize that, Jesus says...
26 Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it.
Is Jesus in the “inner room” of your heart? Others will say, “Yes, this is the fulfillment of this prophecy and it’s already happened!” But, Jesus says, if they say He’s in the “inner rooms” — do not believe it!
IN FACT, to further emphasize it, Jesus makes it very clear that it will be unmistakable. What is “unmistakable” — it’s very simply that which is *not disputed*...
Look at what Jesus says...
27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
Has this been acknowledged by everyone? Does everyone *admit* this? If not, it’s not “unmistakable” and has *not* happened.
So, those are some points as to the fact that these things have not happened fully yet. There are a whole sequence of things and all of them will take place and “this generation” will see all these things.
—
Oh, and one more thing..., about the Temple being built and it marking the beginning of the Tribulation. It’s true that the Temple has to be there for the mid-point of the Tribulation, in order for the sacrifices to be stopped (as we’re told is what will happen). But, that’s a conclusion that we draw (and we *must* draw that conclusion for there no other way for the Jews to have those sacrifices or for the man of sin to be standing in the Holy Place as Jesus referred to). There’s not a direct statement that links the actual “building” of the Temple to the beginning of the Tribulation.
But, there is another statement that links an *event* to the beginning of the Tribulation. It’s in Daniel 9:27
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.
There it is — the *event* that *marks* the beginning of the Tribulation. It’s — “he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week...”
The Temple is required to “be there” in the middle of the 7 years (as we can see from this verse) but the Temple could be built either before the covenant or after the covenant. It doesn’t say. So, I wouldn’t *count on* the “marker* being the exact building date of the Temple, since this prophecy could be fulfilled if the Temple was built before the Antichrist shows up or after the Antichrist shows up. My guess is that “in that covenant” is the terms for the Jews being able to rebuild the Temple and they begin *immediately* — and I understand the rebuilding can be done in 12-18 months...
So, that’s about all, as this is getting long enough ... LOL...
[I haven’t proofed this, so if I made any mistakes, I’ll have to correct them after the fact...]
Well done, as usual.
Didn’t see any mistakes in your presentation or proofs.
I’m on the same page about the temple, but hope there
is no Scriptural “compression” once the temple is
completed.
I would appreciate it if you would stop the falsehoods and slander. It is unbecoming of someone who is espousing a futurist view that is less than 200 years old, and has been parlayed by many cults.
Not to mention that your view has little basis in the Bible, and is mainly arrived at by employing the same literalist techniques of the rabbis in Jesus’ day who missed Him as Messiah because there were looking for a political king. They were just as confused as modern Jews and many Zionist Christians.
The true children of Abraham are those who have been washed in the blood of Messiah Jesus. Not those who claim some physical or cultural lineage.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Gal. 3)Membership in Biblical Israel is by faith alone by Christ alone.
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God. (Rom 2)Make your case from the Bible (if you can) and leave the demons alone.
Many excellent points in your post.
Though it’s a bit like mine . . . going on through many many points.
Sometimes, contrary to my habit, it may be more effective to break them up into segments.
Feel free to remind me . . . I do the same thing as you 98% or so of the time. LOL.
This paragraph:
Well..., I would think it would be clear to any *unbiased reader* (that is, unbiased from “doctrines of demons” more specifically) that the gospel has not been preached “in all the world as a witness to all the nations” — either back then or even now.
is a special one . . . as a missionary . . .
I believe the projected completion time is now within 12 years.
Particularly using the wind up MP3 players and the oral Scriptures for those people groups without written languages and/or high illiteracy rates.
More funding could hasten the time to completion.
I think this is a MAJOR MILE POST that the preterists, amils and post mils have absolutely no logical nor Biblical way to refute it as a clear END TIMES marker.
Of course, neither Biblical facts nor historical facts nor logic seems to phase such anyway . . . but it is worth noting that there’s no way of their logically squirming, rubber Bibling, rubber history-ing out of that marker.