Posted on 04/06/2009 4:48:19 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta
The Church fathers never had a problem with Acts. They did with Revelation. Check your early Church history.
Indeed the early Church fathers did pick and choose what would comprise the New Testament. It was a close call on the Gospel of Thomas, just as Revelation had its detractors.
That is precisely what a Muslim would say of the Kuran — a dream-sequence related by Muhammid to the scribes.
You said — That is precisely what a Muslim would say of the Kuran a dream-sequence related by Muhammid to the scribes.
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Of course..., you’re right in that any “made-up” religion can attempt to validate itself by making false claims for itself. The difference comes in when you *test* the claims and the purported facts in those writings with real-world facts. And that’s where the Bible comes out on top. In all areas where the facts have been able to be checked the Bible is right. And in lots of instances for the Bible, things which were not true at one time, became true later (archeological evidence subsequently found and/or, for example, the re-establishment of the nation of Israel in its same homeland, after almost 2,000 years of being destroyed).
Can Revelation be proven by “real world facts”? I think not. It is not one of the four great books, whose history is indisputable.
And I apologize for my absence there is so much going on, I cant juggle things around to comment every time Id like to.
IMHO, most of us whose spiritual discernment of Scripture is that Christ will fulfill the prophecy of an earthy 1,000 reign on earth before establishing the new heaven and new earth do see signs of the times ever increasingly in current events.
Those would include worldwide economic solutions, increasing global governance, an administration that might succeed in creating a peace treaty making Jerusalem an international city to host Judaism, Islam and Christianity and so on.
And, IMHO, at the top of the list is a spreading spiritual darkness which subordinates God in the minds of many.
For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 2 Timothy 3:1-5
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Matthew 22:37-40
And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died. Genesis 5:5
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. - 2 Peter 3:8
And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath. Mark 2:27-28
Therefore, children, in six days, that is in six thousand years, everything shall come to an end. And He rested on the seventh day. this He meaneth; when His Son shall come, and shall abolish the time of the Lawless One, and shall judge the ungodly, and shall change the sun and the moon and the stars, then shall he truly rest on the seventh day.
Yea and furthermore He saith; Thou shalt hallow it with pure hands and with a pure heart. If therefore a man is able now to hallow the day which God hallowed, though he be pure in heart, we have gone utterly astray. But if after all then and not till then shall we truly rest and hallow it, when we shall ourselves be able to do so after being justified and receiving the promise, when iniquity is no more and all things have been made new by the Lord, we shall be able to hallow it then, because we ourselves shall have been hallowed first.
Finally He saith to them; Your new moons and your Sabbaths I cannot away with. Ye see what is His meaning ; it is not your present Sabbaths that are acceptable [unto Me], but the Sabbath which I have made, in the which, when I have set all things at rest, I will make the beginning of the eighth day which is the beginning of another world.
Wherefore also we keep the eighth day for rejoicing, in the which also Jesus rose from the dead, and having been manifested ascended into the heavens. - chapter 15:3-9
But I do not worry about the tribulation. I do not dread it. When it comes, the rebellion will end as it should, as it must.
Another way is that Yah'shua rose on the day It begins just after sundown after Shabbat(Saturday evening). The YHvH commanded Feast runs for seven weeks plus one day, See Leviticus 23 for details. That is one way of looking at it.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
following the Shabbat following Pesach
which is the YHvH commanded Feast of First Fruits.
and it ends on the other YHvH commanded Feast of Shavuot ( Pentecost)
Only God, Himself, knows the end from the beginning — which happens to be the *verification* for Scripture. And since all things for the future haven’t happened yet, you’ll have to wait for the verification on certain parts of Scripture.
You’ll note that I said, previously, “In all areas where the facts have been able to be checked the Bible is right.”
Some facts are future, and will await their *actual occurrence* for verification (in the same way that Jesus’ coming was “future” at the time before He arrived on earth the first time). These events in Revelation are also “future” (for us..., just as events were future for those people back in history at the time of His first coming). And these are events for Jesus Christ’s second coming.
For those parts which have already happened, we have the proof.
So, you’ll get your proof, when God’s pronouncements about the “future” become the “present”... :-)
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And, once again, you’ve got the same “mentality” of others (too) — which indicates that “mankind” gets to pick and choose what is okay for God to say and what He shouldn’t say. Sorry, all of Scripture is God’s word, whatever books He had His hand in being written.
And the eighth day is the day of renewal... :-)
Early Church history would certainly include the Acts of the Apostles.
Over the next 2-3 centuries there certainly was a lot of "interpretation" of what Luke wrote by persons who were not even born at the time of the Acts. Certainly a careful reading of Acts would make evident some of the problems that developed over the 20 plus decades until Nicaea and other Councils.
The fact that one would suggest that the Book of Revelation ought to be considered as not a legitimate part of the Canon is indicative of the sort of problems that "The Church" has these days.
Hey if your right eye offends thee, then pluck it out.
Boy, they sure got you hood-winked...
The fact that your church stuck Revelation into it's own bible when they didn't even believe what it said ought to open some eyes...God said HE would preserve HIS scripture whether your church agreed or not...Your church had no choice but to put Revelation in it's bible...
Thanks for your kind, substantive and thoughtful msg.
Always appreciate your thinking and pondering which is unfailingly Biblical.
. . . though in this case . . . you seem to have . . . unless I missed it . . . handily slid by the
GREAT SNATCH
issue!
LUB
Then you've got the wrong book...
It is not just those that are Raptured that become the Bride of Christ...It includes all Christians who have passed on before them...
Those that were 'left behind', were left behind because they did not accept Jesus as their Saviour while they had the opportunity...If they accept Jesus as their Saviour during the Tribulation, they will not be bastards...They will not be part of the Bride of Christ...They will be friends of the Bride and Groom...They will make it to heaven, but not as the Bride...
Although there were many Christian martyrs in times past, I suspect most Christians thru-out history died of disease or bad health (old age) of one sort or another...They will be with us at the Rapture...
The bible refers to it as the firstfruits, the (main) harvest-Rapture, and then the gleanings...
Absolutely excellent post! Amen.
I am pre-wrath based on the following passages:
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, - I Ths 5:9
They that [were] foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
But the wise answered, saying, [Not so]; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. - Matthew 25:1-13
But I would not venture a guess as to when exactly the rapture will occur, pre or mid trib - just pre-wrath.
Maranatha, Jesus!!!
Please re-read my response. I stated there was no problem with Acts. I stated and continue to state that the early Church fathers had a problem with Revelation. I have a problem with Revelation. I feel sure that this pleases some who would have God take away my share in the tree of life. So be it.
Did God tell us to place the Apocrypha in the Bible?
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