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To: mrjesse; hosepipe; TXnMA; betty boop; CottShop; allmendream
Thank you so very much for sharing your insights, questions and concerns, dear brother in Christ!

You posed a set of questions what would seem to elicit simple, point-by-point answers:

Said MrJesse:
1: Did God create Adam and Eve, or did all life start from a single primitive cell?
2: At what point did non-man become man? Has it happened yet?
3: At what point did the generations become literal?
4: Was Noah an actual person?
5: Was Abraham an actual person? What about Issac, Jacob?
6: What about Jacob's 12 sons? King David? Solomon?
It is clear that you don't believe in the 6-day 7k year ago creation. But what exactly do you believe?
7: Do you believe that Noah built the ark?
8: And that God closed the door thereon?

But I suspect some of your correspondents would react like I do, that this is a line of inquiry, a set, which explores the correspondent's epistemology: what kind of knowledge exists, how do you know what you know and how certain are you that you actually know it?

For a Christian the question reduces to “Who do you believe?”

My reply is that I love God surpassingly above all else, I believe Him and I trust Him.

To the epistemological question, my reply from a previous thread is that I perceive the following types of knowledge and their certainty in this order, top to bottom:

1. Theological knowledge, direct revelation: I have Spiritual understanding directly from God concerning this issue, e.g. that Jesus Christ is the Son of God - it didn't come from me.
2. Theological knowledge, indirect revelation: I believe in a revelation experienced by another, i.e. Scripture is confirmed to me by the indwelling Spirit.
To clarify: I eschew the doctrines and traditions of men (Mark 7:7) which includes all mortal interpretations of Scriptures, whether by the Pope, Calvin, Arminius, Billy Graham, Joseph Smith or whoever. The mortal scribes (Paul, John, Peter, Daniel, Moses, David, etc.) do not fall in this category since the actual author is the Spirit Himself and He confirms this is so to me personally by His indwelling. Thus I make a hard distinction between the Living Word of God and mere musings - including the geocentricity interpretations of the early church and my own such as in this article.
3. Logical conclusion: I can prove the Pythagorean theorem is valid and true.
4. Evidence/Historical fact, uninterpreted: I have verifiable evidence Reagan was once President.
5. Sensory perception of something external to me: I see my dog is lying at my feet.
6. Personal memory: I recall I had breakfast this morning.
7. Prediction from scientific theory: I calculate there will be a partial solar eclipse this week.
8. Trust in a Mentor: I trust this particular person to always tell me the truth, therefore I know …
9. Internal emotional state: I feel I'm happy, or I have empathy, compassion or sympathy for you.
10. Evidence/Historical fact, interpreted: I conclude from the fossil evidence in the geologic record that …
11. Determined facts: I accept this as fact because of a consensus or veto determination by others, i.e. I trust that these experts or fact finders know what they are talking about.
12. Imaginings: I imagine how things ought to have been in the Schiavo case.

As you can see, my reply to your list of questions will spring from those more basic questions and because of that, it will be quite lengthy:

1: Did God create Adam and Eve, or did all life start from a single primitive cell?

See answer to number 6 below. Also, there are different kinds of life, so again I shall present my understanding of the matter which is rooted in Judeo/Christian theology and relates well to Information Theory and Molecular Biology. Scripture and Jewish tradition speak of the soul/spirit in four levels:

1. nephesh – the will to live, the animal soul, or the soul of all living things (Genesis 1:20) which by Jewish tradition returns to the “earth” after death. In Romans 8, this is seen as a whole, the creation longing for the children of God to be revealed. This is what betty boop and I have often described here as being field-like because it exists in all points of space/time.

2. ruach - the self-will or free will peculiar to man (abstraction, anticipation, intention, etc.) – by Jewish tradition, the pivot wherein a man decides to be Godly minded or earthy minded (also related to Romans 8, choosing)

3. neshama - the breath of God given to Adam (Genesis 2:7) which may also be seen as the “ears to hear” (John 10) - a sense of belonging beyond space/time, a predisposition to seek God and seek answers to the deep questions such as “what is the meaning of life?"

4. ruach Elohim - the Holy Spirit (Genesis 1:2) which indwells Christians (I Cor 2, John 3) – the presently existing in the “beyond” while still in the flesh. (Col 3:3) This is the life in passage : "In him was life, and the life was the light of men..." (John 1)

I suspect only the first two on the list would be manifest in such a way that science might be able to detect them - the last two are specially given gifts of God.

2: At what point did non-man become man? Has it happened yet? See answer to number 6 below.

3: At what point did the generations become literal? After Adam was banished to mortality at the end of Genesis 3

4: Was Noah an actual person? Yes

5: Was Abraham an actual person? What about Issac, Jacob? Yes, yes and yes

6: What about Jacob's 12 sons? King David? Solomon? Yes, yes and yes

It is clear that you don't believe in the 6-day 7k year ago creation. But what exactly do you believe?

The Scriptures are the inerrant words of God. Period. But the words of God must be Spiritually discerned (I Cor 2:6-16.)

I am neither an Old Earth Creationist nor a Young Earth Creationist. Nor do I lean to the Gosse Omphalus Hypothesis which says that the universe only looks old, it could have been created last Thursday.

I see no conflict at all in the revelations of God the Father in (a) Jesus Christ His only begotten Son, (b) the indwelling Holy Spirit (c) Scriptures and (d) Creation, both spiritual and physical.

In sum, I aver that seven equivalent earth days from the inception space/time coordinates (big bang) is equal to roughly fifteen billion years from our space/time coordinates on earth. For more on this point, Scriptures vis-à-vis Inflationary Theory and Relativity see Age of the Universe by Jewish physicist Gerald Schroeder.

Incidentally, often at the root of the theological differences over Creation Week we find Romans 5:12–14 and I Corinthians 15:42–48 - one side saying that Adam was the first mortal man (YEC) and the other saying that Adam was the first ensouled man (OEC.)

But I also have no “dog” in that dispute because I see Adam as created in the spiritual realm, the first man to become a “living soul” (Genesis 2) and I do not see him becoming earth bound until he was banished to mortality at the end of Genesis 3.

In other words, I assert that the first three chapters of Scripture deal with the creation not only of the physical realm but the spiritual as well:

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. – Genesis 1:1

These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and [there was] not a man to till the ground. – Genesis 2:4-5

Therefore I see no conflict with the creation of plant life (day 3) – before the creation of the solar system (day 4.) And as further Scriptural evidence I point to these:

The tree of life is in the center of Eden (Gen 2:9) and Paradise (Rev 2:7).

God created the plants and herbs before they were in the earth (Gen 2:4-5)

The intersection or “types” in the physical realm and spiritual realm: Temple, Ark, Tabernacle, Eden/Paradise.

Furthermore, whereas many see Genesis 1 as a historical record only, the leaning I have in the Spirit is that it is prophecy as well.

My understanding of the time appointed to Adamic men is very similar to the Jewish understanding and that of the early Christians - namely, that Adamic man [after he was banished to mortality in Genesis 3) - is appointed 7,000 years (corresponding to Creation week) the last 1,000 years being the Sabbath reign of Christ on earth (Revelation 20.)

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ. - Colossians 2:16-17

That is a hidden Spiritual Truth behind these verses:

For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. – Psalms 90:4 (a Psalm the Jews attribute to Moses)

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. - 2 Pet 3:8

It is further shown in this verse and its fulfillment (emphasis mine):

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. – Gen 2:17

And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died. – Genesis 5:5

That is also the Jewish interpretation (Sanhedrin 97a; Avodah Zarah Sa) of Psalms 90:4

It was also the early Christian understanding. This, from the Epistle of Barnabas 15:3-5:

He speaks of the Sabbath at the beginning of the Creation, "And God made in six days the works of His hands and on the seventh day He made an end, and He rested on the seventh day, and He sanctified it. Consider, my children what this signifies: That He made an end in six days. The meaning of it is this: that in six thousand years the Creator will bring all things to an end, for with Him one day is a thousand years. He Himself testifies, saying, Behold the day of the Lord shall be as a thousand years. Therefore children, in six days, that is in six thousand years, all things shall be accomplished. And He rested on the seventh day: He means this, that when His Son shall come He will destroy the season of the wicked one, and will judge the godless, and will change the sun and the moon and the stars, and then He will truly rest on the seventh day.

It is also recorded in the first verse, chapter 33 of 2 Enoch which is the Slavic:

And I appointed the eighth day also, that the eighth day should be the first-created after my work, and that (the first seven) revolve in the form of the seventh thousand, and that at the beginning of the eighth thousand there should be a time of not-counting, endless, with neither years nor months nor weeks nor days nor hours.

Following this prophetic timetable envisioned by these Jews and early Christians, Adamic man has little time before the end will come and Christ’s 1,000 reign on earth begins. Using Christian dating, it could be any day now. Using Jewish dating, we have about 240 years to go. This is Jewish year 5769 from Adam’s first moment on earth. The difference is a dispute over the amount of time the Jews were exiled in Babylon: The Jewish Calendar’s 240 missing years

Returning to Scripture and evolution, God specifically mentions things He specially created – and He also leaves the door open to evolution theory here:

And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl [that] may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. – Genesis 1:20

Thus I perceive biological life as a mixture of things specially created by God and mechanisms created by God whereby biological life adapts or evolves.

The Intelligent Design hypothesis is appealing to me and credible on the face. It simply states that “certain features of the universe and life are best explained by intelligent cause rather than an undirected process such as natural selection.” And because animals are known to choose their mates, it is obvious that “certain features” are best explained by those choices.

I find most of the ID disputes to be theological, ideological or political – rarely on the merits on the hypothesis which I consider to be more of an observation.

My main dispute with evolution theory is the improper use of the word and concept of “random” when the correct word and concept is “unpredictable.” Stochastic methods apply to either. But a person cannot say something is random in the system when he does not know what the system “is” – and science does not know – and can never know – the full dimensionality of space/time.

So the use of the word “random” overstates what is known and knowable by the scientific method.

I do however have a very strong objection to those scientists like Dawkins, Pinker, Singer and Lewontin who misappropriate the theory of evolution to proliferate anti-Christ and anti-God sentiment under the color of science.

Because of the self-imposed "methodological naturalism" science does not even look beyond the natural and therefore is way out of bounds to make judgments concerning God, spirit, soul, miracles, etc.

I do not endorse the "irreducible complexity" theory of some Intelligent Design proponents because it looks backwards. However, I do strongly advocate the forward looking point that order cannot arise from chaos in an unguided physical system. Period. There are always guides to the system.

Also, because of scientists who promote anti-God sentiment under the color of science, I do frequently assert several of the open "origin" questions of science to illustrate how little they actually know:

1. Origin of space/time.
2. Origin of life.
3. Origin of inertia.
4. Origin of information (successful communication)
5. Origin of conscience (sense of right v wrong, good v evil, etc.)
6. Origin of consciousness (including decision processes)

The Jewish mystics claim that God will hold us to account if we fail to notice, to inquire, to try and understand the world around us. I agree (emphasis mine):

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. - Romans 1:18-21

The difference, IMHO, is that the Christian or Jew looks at the depth and height of the physical creation – and sees a revelation of the Creator whereas others see a different context (e.g. Buddhism) or no context at all (atheism/agnosticism.)

The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. [There is] no speech nor language, [where] their voice is not heard. – Psalms 19:1-3

I, for instance, see the unreasonable effectiveness of math (Wigner) as God's copyright notice on the cosmos.

Nevertheless, no matter what a Christian may see when he looks at Scriptures and the physical Creation, the bottom line is: to God be the glory!

7: Do you believe that Noah built the ark? Yes

8: And that God closed the door thereon? Yes

To sum it up, I could have answered your list of questions by saying these two things:

Man is not the measure of God.

God’s Name is I AM!


1,160 posted on 07/02/2009 8:18:02 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl; mrjesse; hosepipe; TXnMA; CottShop; allmendream
I suspect only the first two on the list would be manifest in such a way that science might be able to detect them - the last two are specially given gifts of God.

I question whether science as presently constituted could even reach to (2)....

That, however, is a minor quibble. IMHO, it does not in the least detract from your magnificent, luminous essay/post! Thank you ever so much, dearest sister in Christ!

1,164 posted on 07/02/2009 3:03:29 PM PDT by betty boop (One can best feel in dealing with living things how primitive physics still is. — A. Einstein)
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To: Alamo-Girl
Alamo-Girl,

Thank you very much for your in-depth post. I did read it through and have lots to say - but I'm out of time at the moment. Just wanted to say thanks and let you know I wasn't ignoring you!

But here's a couple comments anyway:

Said Alamo-Girl:
But I also have no “dog” in that dispute because I see Adam as created in the spiritual realm, the first man to become a “living soul” (Genesis 2) and I do not see him becoming earth bound until he was banished to mortality at the end of Genesis 3.

Ahh, so God created Adam from the dust of the earth, then took'im back to heaven? If Adam was not bound to earth, then where in tarzan was he when he and his wife ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? (Someone once said it's not about the fruit on the tree but the pair on the ground!) (Do you believe that Adam and Eve did eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? That is when sin entered into the world through the one man Adam, right? Or maybe that never happened and sin never entered into the world? ha ha)
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(Romans 5:12, v14 mentions Adam)
That actually raises more interesting questions - if Adam was not earth-bound but rather a non-physical spirit being (formed out of the dust of the earth..?) busy about his tasks of tending a spiritual garden, then did he actually eat the forbidden fruit, or, well, anyway, I'd love to hear your comment on this!

It was also the early Christian understanding. This, from the Epistle of Barnabas 15:3-5:...
Ahh - you're Catholic, right? Hadn't known that. Not that it makes any difference -- except it may be that you take some things as inspired word of God which I do not. I'm non-denominational Bible-believing, God-fearing, if that helps any. And I tend to be skeptical of a scriptural principle if the only way to back it up is with the apochryphia - I'd like to see the same point in the main part of the Bible.

Have a great day,

-Jesse
1,168 posted on 07/03/2009 2:06:07 AM PDT by mrjesse (The big bang and dark matter exist only in black holes that are supposed to be full of gray matter)
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