Replies

Alamo-Girl,

Thank you very much for your in-depth post. I did read it through and have lots to say - but I'm out of time at the moment. Just wanted to say thanks and let you know I wasn't ignoring you!

But here's a couple comments anyway:

Said Alamo-Girl:
But I also have no “dog” in that dispute because I see Adam as created in the spiritual realm, the first man to become a “living soul” (Genesis 2) and I do not see him becoming earth bound until he was banished to mortality at the end of Genesis 3.

Ahh, so God created Adam from the dust of the earth, then took'im back to heaven? If Adam was not bound to earth, then where in tarzan was he when he and his wife ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? (Someone once said it's not about the fruit on the tree but the pair on the ground!) (Do you believe that Adam and Eve did eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? That is when sin entered into the world through the one man Adam, right? Or maybe that never happened and sin never entered into the world? ha ha)

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(Romans 5:12, v14 mentions Adam)

That actually raises more interesting questions - if Adam was not earth-bound but rather a non-physical spirit being (formed out of the dust of the earth..?) busy about his tasks of tending a spiritual garden, then did he actually eat the forbidden fruit, or, well, anyway, I'd love to hear your comment on this!

It was also the early Christian understanding. This, from the Epistle of Barnabas 15:3-5:...
Ahh - you're Catholic, right? Hadn't known that. Not that it makes any difference -- except it may be that you take some things as inspired word of God which I do not. I'm non-denominational Bible-believing, God-fearing, if that helps any. And I tend to be skeptical of a scriptural principle if the only way to back it up is with the apochryphia - I'd like to see the same point in the main part of the Bible.

Have a great day,

-Jesse

[[That actually raises more interesting questions - if Adam was not earth-bound but rather a non-physical spirit being (formed out of the dust of the earth..?) busy about his tasks of tending a spiritual garden, then did he actually eat the forbidden fruit, or, well, anyway, I’d love to hear your comment on this! ]]

This brings up a good point too inthat, Angels had the ability to sin against hteir God before Adam and Eve were created, and if so, if Adam was a spiritual being, he would not have needed the tree of knowledge of good and evil because spiritual beings already knew good AND evil, and could make hte choice between the two- thus no tree was needed needed to make that descision.

And just a further note- some peopel question why God woudl have created the ‘tree of knowledge of good and evil’ and htus ‘tempt’ man to sin- thinking that God had stacked the deck against man right fro mthe start- However, in order for true love to exist, there MUST be the ability to excercise free will, and htere can’t be an ability to do so without the possibility of being unfaithful- , True love can only flourish deeply when htere is the possibility that another ‘love interest’ could capture the heart- the person dedicated to hte spouse shows true love by stickign to their mate or their one true devotion (Soemthign Sanford seems to have forgotten)

Man could have remained moral had hte tree not been available- had hte ability to sin not been made available, but complete morality without the chance of falling ends in a stale relationship- man HAD to go from morality to mortality in order to experience the ability to show true love toward His Creator

Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts, dear mrjesse!

First off, no I am not a member of the "Catholic Church" though about half of my family is. I’m just a Christian plain and simple. See number 2 on my twelve point answer to the epistemological question for more.

Secondly, the Epistle of Barnabas is not part of the Deuterocanonical books that the Catholic Church includes in its canon. And it is not to be confused with the late sixteenth century Islamic fraud, “The Gospel of Barnabas.”

The Epistle of Barnabas dates back to the first few centuries after Christ’s resurrection. It is quoted by Clement of Alexandria and also mentioned by Origen. It was part of the Codex Sinaiticus but is not part of the Catholic canon today.

I quote it because it unambiguously informs us how at a major part of the early church viewed Creation week in Genesis vis-à-vis prophecy. Both it and the Pseudepigraphal book, 2 Enoch which is dated to the first century and only preserved in Slavic refer to the new heaven and earth as the “eighth day” – a time of no more counting when God makes everything anew, and that our present age corresponds to Creation Week – 7 days to 7,000 years with the last 1,000 being the Sabbath, Christ's reign on earth (fulfilling the Jewish Messianic prophecies.)

In sum, my Spiritual understanding is that the first three chapters of Genesis are from the Creator’s perspective. He was the only observer of Creation week.

At the top of Genesis 4, the perspective changes to Adamic man – the clock starts clicking, death has entered the world because he was banished to mortality (end of chapter 3.) The death here is not just physical, it is “muwth muwth.” (Genesis 2:17)

Adam was made to be a living soul in paradise, always communicating with God.

And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. - Genesis 2:7

The “dust of the ground” does not mean physical to the exclusion of spiritual, earthy to the exclusion of heavenly. Emphasis mine:

These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and [there was] not a man to till the ground. – Genesis 2:4-5

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. – Genesis 1:1

The difference between the physical and the spiritual is not a “here v there” matter of geometry, e.g. the ark, the tabernacle, the holy mountain, the temple, you and me.

Note that the tree of life is in the center of the garden of Eden and also in the center of Paradise. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is also in the midst of the garden.

And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. – Genesis 2:9

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. – Revelation 2:7

But Adam brought upon himself – and thereby, us - the penalty of “death death” by not loving God enough to obey Him (comment emphasized:)

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die [literally, muwth muwth or “death death”]. – Genesis 2:17

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. – Matthew 10:28

And so he was banished to mortality, bringing "muwth muwth" - "death death" - into the Creature which now groans and suffers yearning for the children of God to be revealed (Romans 8.)

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. – Genesis 3:22-24

Notice how the time changes along with the perspective:

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. – Gen 2:17

And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died. – Genesis 5:5

The above is the key to understanding the ancient Jewish/Christian belief that Creation week is also prophecy.

Adam did indeed die (muwth muwth) in the “day” he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil because a day from God’s perspective in this revelation to us is a thousand years from Adamic man’s perspective.

For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. – Psalms 90:4

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. - 2 Pet 3:8

The penalty is Truth because God said it. Adamic man, now banished to morality - muwth muwth - is doomed. The only way man can live in paradise as a member of God's family, where he belonged in the first place, is that he must be born again.

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. - John 3:5-7

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. – John 1:12-13

By the indwelling of the Spirit, we become new creatures – indeed, we are made anew, restoring us not only to the kind of creature man was intended to be, but enlivening us as adopted members of God’s own family.

So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. – I Corinthians 15:42-45

Only the Blood of Christ could accomplish this.

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.– Colossians 1:15-20

In my experience, those who view the revelation of God in Genesis chapters one to three as written from man’s perspective – that it is speaking of physical creation and little if any spiritual creation – either end up in the Young Earth Creationism corner by holding Scripture as their most certain source of knowledge - or in the Old Earth Creationism corner by subordinating Scriptural knowledge to knowledge gained from physical evidence.

To me, all of God's revelations are consistent. He is the Creator, the author of Scripture, the only observer of Creation, that He created both spiritual as well as physical and that the observer-perspective of Scripture changes from the Creator’s to Adamic man’s at the end of Genesis 3. That’s when the clock starts clicking.

To God be the glory!