Posted on 04/04/2009 3:29:51 PM PDT by Alex Murphy
This is a distressing new Gallup poll. It shows that churchgoing Catholics are far more likely to approve of moral behavior (sex between unmarried people, homosexuality, etc.) that their church deems immoral than are churchgoing Protestants.
This is a conundrum to me, one I thought about a lot when I was a Catholic, and troubled over. Why is it that Catholics have a Pope and a Magisterium -- a clear teaching authority -- as well as a complex, coherent and profoundly intellectual moral theology ... and yet these things, which ought to give it a tremendous advantage in maintaining the obedience of its flock, avail the Catholic Church little? It shouldn't be that way, logically, but it is in practice.
Lee Podles, an orthodox Catholic, has some thoughts.
[I wish I didn't have to say this, but I do: this is not an anti-Catholic post, but rather intended to spark discussion on various reasons why this poll found the things it did. As someone who would like to raise my children to believe in what my faith teaches, I'd like to know what works, and what doesn't. Anybody who tries to derail the thread by making specious claims of anti-Catholicism will find their posts unpublished. So don't even start.]
OR, they can become a Catholic priest where the Vatican will shuffle them around the world when they get caught with their hands in someone else's pockets...
I don't think there's too much room for you to claim your religion takes the moral high road on the issue of queers...
I've been to Las Vegas nights at Catholic churches...With the kegs of beer and bottles of booze where no one drank in moderation...Including the priests...
Spew your garbage somewhere else...
You wrote:
“I do, actually. There is no pope in the Bible (Peter, btw, is not the “Rock”....look at the Greek),...”
Actually the Greek shows Peter is the Rock and scholars of Greek admit this unless they have a bias preventing them from doing so. DA Carson, a Protestant, admits this is the case.
“...and frankly, there is no basis for any hierarchy over Christians outside the local church.”
Sure there is. There was always a hierarchy among Jews - hence, HIGH Priests.
“No archdeacons, no archbishops, no magisterium, no nothing.”
Nonsense. Read your Bible. Bishops, elders and deacons. That’s a hierarchy. Are you telling me that people thought the lowly deacons were the same in authority as the bishops/Apostles? Please use common sense.
“The sentiment of defending innocent life didn’t offend me. Rather, the notion that I had to defend life because some guy in a funny hat tells me to, I found rather sad.”
So you think you have to defend life because the pope said so? I think you’re missing the whole point about extolling someone toward the good. You’re acting like a liberal. What will offend you next? That the pope, an unmarried man, tells you to be faithful to your wife?
“Oh, don’t whine at me about anti-Catholicism. Catholics have been persecuting, burning, stealing from, etc. etc. ad nauseum Biblical Christians for about 1200 years.”
We ARE the Biblical Christians. We wrote it under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. We copied it. We preached it. We first printed it. Protestants on the other hand, didn’t exist until after 1500 and everyone knows it.
“You have no standing to play the martyr now.”
You have no standing to be offended by a harmless bumpersticker. Get a life.
You wrote:
“I’ve been to Las Vegas nights at Catholic churches...With the kegs of beer and bottles of booze where no one drank in moderation...Including the priests...”
And I’ve been a Catholic my whole life and never once went to a “Las Vegas night” anywhere.
“Spew your garbage somewhere else...”
You’re the one spewing here.
So what?
Peter was the first Pope.
(Peter, btw, is not the "Rock"....look at the Greek)...
Why look at the Greek? Christ spoke it in Aramaic.
Catholics have been persecuting, burning, stealing from, etc. etc. ad nauseum Biblical Christians...
Catholics are Biblical Christians.
Catholics trashing Protestants day after day is the popular thing to do on FR.
Catholics dish it out but can't take it.
Quite the opposite, actually. Catholics here have been taking it since day one.
How dare we undertake to respond!
For one thing you have had a whole cadre of "Vatican II" priests from seminaries in the seventies and eighties who mocked the Pope and Magisterium; who didn't even think Jesus was real; who scorned the Law, and who preached "social justice" instead of the Gospel.
You have one in charge of Notre Dame right now--see how well he respects the pope and magisterium. Somebody called it "AmChurch," reflecting secular American values of individualism and rejection of authority.
I suspect that this actually will have begun to heal now that you have had two Catholic popes in a row.
Oh my...that is pretty dodgone laughable.
It’s funny, but I assure you that liberal, un-orthodox Catholics believe a lot of what you say here. Protestants on FR and Catholics on FR are both pretty likely to be “conservative” in their faith, more so if they bother posting in the R. forum. So why do you think the consevative, rule following Catholics on FR would disagree with what you have posted while the liberal non-rules following Catholics would be cheering the parts about no pope, magesterium, obeying the pope, and how evil Catholics are? If you added birth control being cool, divorce, married priests and some anti devotion to Mary stuff you would have liberal Catholics standing on their chairs and testifying.
And I’m NOT saying that other types of Christians on FR are “liberal” if a lot of what they believe about Catholic practices happen to coincide with the non-rules following Catholics believe as compaired to the “rules following” Catholics. It’s just weird is all. But the Catholics who believe in “gay marriage” and baby butchery are also very likely to believe those other things too.
Freegards
In other words, the crucifixion for Protestants was vicarious but for Catholics is participatory.
Sounds like you have a problem with your relatives and not the RCC.
I understand that you started to catch on to where I was coming from as you read down my post but I just could not let this stand. My Catholic grandparents were the most loving people on the planet....so watch your mouth!
It was the Church as a whole that was handicaping the youth to face the crap that comes from the left. Just like happened in Europe.
I'll write more after I calm down so I don't get banned.
That is how it was perceived or propagandized in Europe, be it an illusion or not and that is why the pendulum of political tolerance in the Church has swung too far in the other direction.
I think there is fault to be found in ALL religions and not a devout member of any particular religious denomination so if I notice it, it's blatant!
The unintended consequences of the pious Catholics, in my case, is that it has turned me totally against Catholicism. I have told my Catholic friends about it and we LAUGH about it--because they aren't like those of you on FR.
I think it's hilarious the way the Catholics have responded to a little perceived criticism; dish it out but can't take it!--just a bunch of little "goody-two-shoes" who have fallen very short of being Christ-like. You're more like an indoctrinated cult. You're not about worshiping God but worshiping the Catholic Church and the pope!
You think Christ walked around performing miracles dressed like the pope?...who is nobody's Father!...as far as we know.
BTW, every ounce of criticism I feel for the Catholic Church was born and nourished on FR!
“Oh that post makes a ton of sense. Seriously.”
Read:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2222762/posts
I felt I had brought up some logical questions as the poll appeared very convoluted. Perhaps the thread link above will help clarify my post regarding this specific Gallup poll.
I guess you are saying Pelosi, Kerry, and Kennedy don’t try to take communion? They don’t go to church, or, when they go, they don’t line up for communion?
“So in your Church, eveyone is perfect? Right?”
No, Twink. We’ve had people repudiate the faith, fall into alcoholism, commit adultery, and indulge in spousal abuse (probably a lot more than that, too, that I don’t know about).
However, these folks are subjected to church discipline. They are removed from the church membership. While they can still show up, they can’t lead, vote, or take communion.
My other comment did not need an LOL. How would you like me to respond to the poster’s question? Should I tell him everything is fine and there is no solution to the problem?
“This post by you told me all I needed to know, and not in a good way. So, thanks. What a “good” Christian you are. Heh.”
Your hostility is undeserved. If you think the RC church does not have a problem keeping its members in line with its doctrines, then you did not read the cited study. There is a problem there. If you are Catholic, I’d think you’d be the first to address the issue, rather than dismissing it.
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