The Rapture [RAPTURE CAUCUS]

Lamb & Lion Ministries ^ | Dr. David Reagan

[sevenbak]

I should clarify to the RM, that ST personally invited me to this thread, I’m not attempting to butt in, thanks.

[invoman]

I've been involved in debate over this topic for so many years...I can't remember when this topic was NOT a debate.

I've gotten to the point where I think I could argue the "other side" with a decent amount of persuasiveness. (Maybe even equal.) I know exactly where my "pre-trib" view is weak and I don't ignore it.

I came to my conclusions based on the idea that the "pre-trib" view of eschatology is the least weak. It certainly is not perfect, but I think it (for me) most honestly reflects what the Bible says.

Some pre-trib authors lay out a convincing description but use some very very shaky ideas and other verses that are plainly disputable (to justify their conclusion.)

One such author is Tim LaHaye. I taught a Bible study and we were using his course, "Charting the End Times" (Thomas Ice was also a co-author.)

I discovered that they outright contradict themselves in this course and, by doing so, lessen their credibility quite considerably. (I didn't chose the material...it was provided and I was asked to lead it.)

Put another way, when you said:

So, what one person would say is “not valid scholarship” — may actually be simply another person’s different “viewpoint” regarding the timing of the Rapture.

I would respond and ask why did Tim Lahaye and Thomas Ice flatly contradict themselves and further harm the pre-trib view by teaching a faulty exposition on some verses?

Tim LaHaye and Thomas Ice are busy men (I'm sure), so they probably wouldn't have any time for me, so I haven't tried to contact them. (Hmmm...maybe I should?)

[invoman]

Marbren,

If you are looking for a fantastic scholar, look here:

Pre-Tribulation Rapture

This man is available to answer questions.

[invoman]

You said:

Having said that, it’s also apparent (at least to me) that we can know that we are in the “time of the end” — at which time the Rapture will be happening “soon” (but, an “unknown soon”...).

I’m afraid that this (i.e. your article referenced) would go against the teaching of the “imminence” of the Rapture.

"Imminence" is a mine field.

Those who teach an "always imminent (for the past 2000 years) rapture" are easily defeated. This is simply not true. Both Paul and Peter predicted their own deaths and by doing so showed that they KNEW they weren't going to make the rapture.

Instead, it is helpful to use the verse that makes us (in 2009) know that a rapture IS imminent.

2 Thess. 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

There are two signs that PREcede the Rapture: Apostasy and the revealing of the anti-christ.

Apostasy is clearly going on.

The only sign (PREceding the rapture) left is the revealing of the anti-christ.

Now "reveal" does not mean that he "tears off a mask and declares himself to be God" or anything like that. It simply means that a majority of Saints will (at once) recognize that this man IS the anti-christ. I suspect this will be on television and he will say something or do something that will have the Saints watching horrified. (While the rest of the world ignores it.)

...then nothing is left to wait for and the rapture could take place within those seconds of recognition.

(pure speculation here)
We may already know/see a man who WILL be the anti-christ. But he hasn't been revealed yet. (/speculation)

1. Please note that not a single Apostle suspected Judas as becoming the betrayer of Jesus and they all suspected themselves as potential candidates.

2. Judas was named amongst the 12.

3. The only other time "the son of perdition" is used in the Bible is to describe Judas.

[JesusBmyGod]

bookmark

[American in Israel]

Clarance larkin? No I have not, I will try to find them.

Thanks

[Lee N. Field]

Clarance larkin?

[Star Traveler]

Will have to get back on this; on the road for a week or so and posting on phone. Y’all keep up the good discussion, though... :-)

[Star Traveler]

Hi, I read it and appreciate you spending the time. Right now I can’t respond too much, being out on the road and writing from a phone, but will write a bit more when I get back (about a week). Anyone else..., please feel free to reply (from our caucus).

[Star Traveler]

I’ve got some questions about this, and I thank you for posting it. But I have to wait to post more thoughtfully when I’m back in town. Perhaps someone else has something to say in the meantime... :-)

[Jo Nuvark]

PING TO TOP

[TaraP]

This is also a great link
http://contenderministries.org/prophecy/rapturetrib.php

GOD has always warned his people of his *signs* *warnings*
and *wrath* when destruction is about to come..

He warned Noah, Lot and he has warned us...

That is why we can believe in the *Rapture* IMHO...

[Luke21]

Henry Ironside, or Harry Ironside?

[mountn man]

Check out Joel Rosenbergs books. Last Jihad, etc. They don't deal with the rapture, at least the ones I have read. But they do deal with Gog Magog.

Many consider his books to be almost prophetic.

[mountn man]

Also, talking about prophecy fulfillment, one should look at the prophecies of Jesus’ first coming and then ask if they were literally fulfilled, or they were spiritually fulfilled. I would imagine that in the same way that the prophecies of the first coming of Jesus were fulfilled, it should be the same way for the end times, too...

EXCELLENT point.

Thanx for the invite to the caucus.

[mountn man]

Thanks for posting that information regarding a connection between the Rapture and a Jewish Feast Day. I’ve considered that. I’ll have to read that more closely a bit later on.

I have fairly recently come across the information of Jewish Feast Days, and have really been intrigued by them. I really like Perry Stones teachings of ancient Jewish holidays and traditions. Often times as he's explaining something, a light goes on in my head, and a loose end in the Bible seems to come together.

I think the modern church has lost so much understanding, because we don't know ancient Jewish traditions.

We have created our own holidays celebrating Christ, and call them HolyDays. And yet we don't know anything about the very feasts God himself established.

Jesus didn't start a NEW religion, he is the continuation, the fulfillment of the one true religion.

[mountn man]

The only sign (PREceding the rapture) left is the revealing of the anti-christ.

Now "reveal" does not mean that he "tears off a mask and declares himself to be God" or anything like that. It simply means that a majority of Saints will (at once) recognize that this man IS the anti-christ. I suspect this will be on television and he will say something or do something that will have the Saints watching horrified. (While the rest of the world ignores it.)

...then nothing is left to wait for and the rapture could take place within those seconds of recognition.

(pure speculation here) We may already know/see a man who WILL be the anti-christ. But he hasn't been revealed yet. (/speculation)

I guess we'll know for sure when Obama agress to a 7 year peace treaty with Israel ;)

[mountn man]

One you can see quite plainly here on Free Republic. You’ll get hammered for even starting to talk about things like the Rapture, which is closer than ever — especially when the prophetic things written in the Bible about the end times, seem to be coming very soon.

There will be all sorts of “naysayers” that interfere with you being able to even talk about these events and their relation to the soon coming Rapture — and it will make a disaster of you trying to have a nice conversation with other people who *are interested*.

2 Peter 3:3 First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation."

[pinkpanther111]

I am confused by these statements....

Once this is understood it clears up a whole lot of argument between pre-trib mid-trib and pre-wrath.

If the subject is the Great Tribulation then pre/mid/prewrath are all the same thing

Could you elaborate on how pre/mid/prewrath are all the same thing? Thank in advance!

[woollyone]

oops...Harry.

ty for the catch