Nor that you over estimate your intelligence DU. Which of the thousands and thousands of samples that have been collected been “contaminated”? Cite the report (crickets).
Let me give you Yet another example, let's say we start with a small group of people from Israel, then we marry in a larger group of Chinese people and wait several thousand years, keeping just this pool of DNA going. In several thousand years you will be unlikely to prove you had original DNA from Israel, it just get's worse as you kill off major groups who were preserving their heritage (like the Nephites) and darn near impossible if you start having large groups of people die off a few hundred years before you do your testing while being corrupted by still another group of DNA not from Israel.
So you are going to deny your prophets now. Your prophets and apostles have taught since the beginning that the Amerindians are direct descendants of lehi. Or are you going to admit that your missionaries have been lying to Amerindians (as well as Polynesians too) all these years. That is what your scenario does – it makes a liar out of your prophet. Who speaks for the inspiration of God – professors in BYU now?
As a valid comparison on corruption of samples which you apparently are too obtuse to understand, just keep concentrating on minutia, maybe the big problems with your analysis will go away... (NOT!)
You were the one making the claim that dna studies = blood typing.
ROTFLOL! Really? Simon Southerton is an example of this scientific community of people who assume the Book of Mormon says there is a pure enough sample to get a no? LOL!
You really have a fixation on him don’t you. I have cited numerous other papers by other scientists, pointed you to the Nat’l Geo Society Genome project. Lurkers will note that Du is incapable of citing anything outside of the apologetics faith rumor mill or UFO sites. Even this “contaminated DNA” (which really shows ignorance in the transmission of DNA markers now widely used in science) didn’t stop Crandall and others in doing the work with the Lemba tribe – a group of Jews identified by genetic markers to be Jews – an exact parallel that DU is in denial of.
They are on a DVD published by FairLDS.org, and published by Fair on Youtube, but I guess you can continue to deny it if you don't actually go see it, maybe if you close your eyes really tight...
This is not a real publication DU, and I know the lurkers out there are smart enough to see through the obfuscation. They are afraid to publish outside of their echo chamber where other professionals in the field can critically review their work. American Journal of Human Genetics, American Journal of Anthropology and others are just waiting for them to publish their studies with them. A DVD or youtube is not a scientific reviewed publication DU – and you know that they are cowards to have their works peer-reviewed.
Speaking of safe little boxes of reality, can you get good test results from garbage data?...(No, and The Sorenson lab has yet to get a valid result (According to their website) back past the 1700's for that reason...)
Apples to oranges DU, the lack of success you are claiming are regarding an individual basis, not larger scale people groups. However, you continue to fail to read the entire article. The failure was due to the lady (Wilson’s) own genealogy research. Sorenson Lab found the mtDNA match for her across the Atlantic in Africa. Once again, your proof actually PROVES the methodology – not denies it.
Really, why didn't you link to them, I'd be interested in reading that. Oh yeah, you don't link, your word (edited after the fact) should be good enough... (LOL!)
Lurkers will notice the dishonesty here. However, I’ll post these again.
The Bauu Institute
Am J Hum Genet. 2003 November; 73(5): 1178–1190.
Current Biology, Volume 19, Issue 1, 13 January 2009, Pages 1-8
Genetic Variation and Population Structure in Native Americans
National Geographic Genome Project
Other books -
Crawford, Michael H. (2001). The Origins of Native Americans: Evidence from Anthropological Genetics . Cambridge University Press.
Crawford, Michael H. (2006). Anthropological Genetics: Theory, Methods, and Applications . Cambridge University Press.
Jones, Peter N. (2004). American Indian mtDNA, Y Chromosome Genetic Data, and the Peopling of North America . Bauu Press.
Powell, Joseph F. (2005). The First Americans: Race, Evolution and the Origin of Native Americans . Cambridge University Press.
Wells, Spencer. (2004). The Journey of Man: A Genetic Odyssey . Random House.
PRECISELY the problem, the Book of Mormon adds tons of people with out telling us where they come from, unless you assume... wait, Good scientists don't do that.
Once again, DU misrepresents the bom.. all of the peoples he has cited in the past have their origin in either Jerusalem of the middle east in general and would carry DNA markers characteristic of the region
More of the if I repeat this often enough people might just believe it? The Book of Mormon documents slaves joining the group, and does not tell their origin, probably not Jerusalem, and worse, they keep joining groups in the Americas who's origin is also not spelled out!
So you are telling me that Joseph Smith is a liar then in his own hand.
When I was about 17 years old I saw another vision of angels in the night season after I had retired to bed I had not been asleep, … all at once the room was illuminated above the brightness of the sun an angel appeared before me … he said unto me I am a messenger sent from God, be faithful and keep his commandments in all things, he told me of a sacred record which was written on plates of gold, I saw in the vision the place where they were deposited, he said the Indians were the literal descendants of Abraham (The Papers of Joseph Smith, Vol. 2, Journal, 1832-1842, edited by Dean C. Jessee, Deseret Book Company, Salt Lake City, copyright 1992 Corporation of the President, pp. 69-70, emphasis added).
Not if they are A) from different tribes of Israel, or B) include slave DNA from who knows where, or joined with people from outside of Israel.
The men of Israel would carry the Y chromosome of Abraham as his descendant, and the few slaves (provide numbers DU) would not overwhelm Lehi’s family
Absolutely wrong, Nephi's Mother would pass her mtDNA down to her sons, but their children would be passing down the mtDNA of their wives (who'd genealogy we don't know past their Dad).
How laughable DU – show everyone you are drowning once again in your ignorance of the subject. The mtDNA would follow down and be promulgated by every daughter and not affected by the men (that is why it is mtDNA). Lurkers are invited to go to the Nat’l Geo Genome site listed above and see how this works – since DU doesn’t want to accurately present it inspite of having access to it over numerous times.
Try learning a bit about Mitochondrial DNA from the Sorenson institute. The green woman is your female from Jerusalem, the Grey people are everyone else, then you have a war... She dies.
Once again, DUh is unable to grasp the concept of the haplogroups that are associated with the regional setting of Israel. The video at the link is on an individual basis – looking at it at a microscopic level. Population genetics look at the haplogroups, which for Israelis is group X..
Pulease, you don't have a clue what you are talking about, the Book of Mormon has many references to peoples that are not traced back to Israel or anywhere for that matter. Ether 1: 6 6 And on this wise do I give the account. He that wrote this record was Ether, and he was a descendant of Coriantor.
That Ether was a descendent of Coriantor ends when they were all killed in the final battle of annihilation. Or are your calling your prophets a liar again?
Joseph, not Judah, Judah is what you have to compare with now, but you'd have to do deep studies to connect that, even if you had a pure Tribe of Joseph DNA person it'd be difficult.
Joseph carries the Y Chromosone of Abraham as well as Jacob – pure as it gets
Ishmaels's wife, was she an Israelite? It's her mtDNA that Nephi's, Laman's and Lemual's children would be carrying, not Lehi's... First Nephi 16:7
The Y chromosones would be passed. Nothings says that the women were not Israelites, but even so, they carried the middle eastern haplogroup X. Or are you calling your prophets a liar again?
Spencer W. Kimball quoted in The Ensign of July 1971, pp. 7ff saying,
The term Lamanite includes all Indians and Indian mixtures, such as the Polynesians, the Guatemalans, the Peruvians, as well as the Sioux, the Apache, the Mohawk, the Navajo, and others. It is a large group of great people. (p. 7) … There are no blessings, of all the imaginable ones, to which you are not entitled—you, the Lamanites—when you are righteous. You are of royal blood, the children of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, and Lehi
So, who was the mother of these daughters of Ishmael? What was her genealogy since that is what you want to track with your mtDNA tests, we simply don't know what MT DNA the descendants of Nephi, Laman and Lemual would look like, yet you want to claim conclusive proof, let's look at more of what the Book of Mormon actually says about descendants.
Your assertions have been refuted over and over again so far. Lurkers will note that population group studies show the movements of people groups like those in the middle east and Israel over history. The Lemba tribe is a prime example of the capabilities of it being done. DUh want to hide the people of the bom in a postage stamp sized area in central America, an act that makes his prophets and leaders out to be liars and worse. Please checkout my links above, as it puts the science involved into better perspective and shows the hollowness of DU’s failed and flawed arguments.
Lurkers, please note Nephi and Laman came over with the same group, both were full brothers, (sons of the same Father (Lehi) and Mother (Sariah). Both the Nephites and Lamanites Married in with other peoples, and Godzilla thinks this is a racist statement, saying his ancestors never intermarried with his brother's descendants.
What do the prophets and leaders say about the descendants of Lehi?
Elder Gene R. Cook (First Quorum of the Seventy
My family and I are presently living in South America among the Lamanites — the children of Lehi, the people of the Book of Mormon, a people of great promise. For a number of years we have been witnesses to spiritual miracles among that people. (Gene R. Cook, “Miracles among the Lamanites,” Ensign, Nov. 1980, 67.)
The redemption of the Lamanite as a remnant of scattered Israel, in accordance with Book of Mormon prophecy, is one of the vital responsibilities and opportunities of the restored church
As the gospel is taught in various nations of the Americas and on the Pacific islands, missionary programs for Lamanite and mestizo segments of the population might well be adapted to the language and the ethnic position of the descendants of Father Lehi in each nation. Missionary work in Bolivia, for instance, is done in Spanish and in two Indian languages, Quechua and Aymará (“What Is a Lamanite?” Ensign, Sept. 1972, 62ff).
Spencer W. Kimball
With pride I tell those who come to my office that a Lamanite is a descendant of one Lehi who left Jerusalem six hundred years before Christ and with his family crossed the mighty deep and landed in America. And Lehi and his family became the ancestors of all of the Indian and Mestizo tribes in North and South and Central America and in the islands of the sea, for in the middle of their history there were those who left America in ships of their making and went to the islands of the sea. (page 7)
There are no blessings, of all the imaginable ones, to which you are not entitled—you, the Lamanites—when you are righteous. You are of royal blood, the children of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, and Lehi (“Of Royal Blood,” Ensign, July 1971, p. 10)
The "Science" used to debunk the Book of moron might as well have been presented at the UFO convention Godzilla likes to talk about. On top of this he is rude rendering my nick as part of DUh. (which is really pathetic) To me this just indicates that's all he's got, rudeness, ignorance marketed as "scholarship" Guilt by Association, Red Herrings, and as I showed in my last post, he edits his and my words, thus editing history to try and make his points, last but not least, Godzilla posts these huge posts in hopes that people will just give up and not respond to him. (If you do respond and don't address every irrelavent detail, he can claim avoidance as yet another Red Herring.
Remarkable, it would be laughable if it weren’t so dishonestly presented. The sampling of publications and articles I’ve posted above and earlier are not the kinds of things presented at UFO conventions. However, it is documented history that DU looks to such sources for confirmation of his faith. His editing of my posts and links are history too, but lurkers are smart enough to be able to follow the links backward.
Godzilla, Actually address the issue for once, If as I am saying the Book of Momron shows an intermarrying with lots of people from unknown places (possibly Asia and Siberia, the Book of Mormon does not say) then does any of these DNA Studies prove it wrong?
DU, your prophets are calling your interpretation of the bom a lie. Even former president Hinkley said in this regard - “I sense a great spirit of gratitude for this new temple,” remarked President Hinckley. “The Saints have waited a very, very long time.” He continued: “It has been a very interesting thing to see the descendants of Father Lehi in the congregations that have gathered in the temple. So very many of these people have the blood of Lehi in their veins, and it is just an intriguing thing to see their tremendous response and their tremendous interest.” (Remarks at the dedication of the Guayaquil, Ecuador temple, reported in “News of the Church,” Ensign, Oct. 1999, p. 74)
Who is lying DU and who speaks for the spiritual truth you claim supersedes science fact? Is is your prophets or professors and apologists at BYU? 150+ years of mormon teaching have the Amerindians being descendants of Lehi and Israel. The bom does not say otherwise, only the professors at BYU trying to salvage their vanishing geography theory.
"and also all those who should be led out of other countries by the hand of the Lord"... How frustrating it must be to be outsmarted by a backwoods farboy who died a hundred and fifty plus years ago. There is only one way Joseph could have dictated the Book of Mormon, and that is by the Gift and power of God and all the argumnets in Hell cannot bring it down once a man has God's word that it's true.
So, if smith is correct, then the boys at byu are lying, for smith wrote:
When I was about 17 years old I saw another vision of angels in the night season after I had retired to bed I had not been asleep, … all at once the room was illuminated above the brightness of the sun an angel appeared before me … he said unto me I am a messenger sent from God, be faithful and keep his commandments in all things, he told me of a sacred record which was written on plates of gold, I saw in the vision the place where they were deposited, he said the Indians were the literal descendants of Abraham (The Papers of Joseph Smith, Vol. 2, Journal, 1832-1842, edited by Dean C. Jessee, Deseret Book Company, Salt Lake City, copyright 1992 Corporation of the President, pp. 69-70, emphasis added).
Well, DUh, looks like smith outsmarted the boys at byu as well.
BAH!!
This ain't no SCRIPTURE!
Therefore we MORMONs place NO value on it!
--MormonDude(Unless WE want to make a point out of them...)