Replies

DU The blood typing was an example of a corrupted source, which you have never addressed.

GZ Apples to oranges. Blood typing is defined by certain proteins, called antigens, on your red blood cells. DNA testing is based on a molecular level study that doesn’t get corrupted in the manner you described.

LOL! Shows how much you know, what happens if I take blood from an African, a Greek Guy and an American Indian, mix them together and then try to do a genetic analysis? (You get corrupted for results that's what) that was my point. If you start with a corrupted sample you will get corrupted results.

Now you are going to point out that we are not "mixing them in a test tube", great, I knew that, I was trying to give you an example that you could understand. Apparently I was unable to underestimate your intelligence.

DNA studies require a sample of DNA to start with and if the original sample was corrupted, then you will get corrupted results.

Let me give you Yet another example, let's say we start with a small group of people from Israel, then we marry in a larger group of Chinese people and wait several thousand years, keeping just this pool of DNA going. In several thousand years you will be unlikely to prove you had original DNA from Israel, it just get's worse as you kill off major groups who were preserving their heritage (like the Nephites) and darn near impossible if you start having large groups of people die off a few hundred years before you do your testing while being corrupted by still another group of DNA not from Israel.

DU I will address your DNA issues as soon as you address the corrupted and diluted DNA that I have pointed out until then your conclusions are moot.

GZ DU, still way off your written program, since you compare DNA to blood typing.

As a valid comparison on corruption of samples which you apparently are too obtuse to understand, just keep concentrating on minutia, maybe the big problems with your analysis will go away... (NOT!)

GZ You have yet to address the fact that the scientific community continues in these studies DUh. They meet the standard necessary to conduct and publish their research under the review of their peers.

ROTFLOL! Really? Simon Southerton is an example of this scientific community of people who assume the Book of Mormon says there is a pure enough sample to get a no? LOL!

GZ Where are the mormon apologists responses in these open publications? They are not there.

They are on a DVD published by FairLDS.org, and published by Fair on Youtube, but I guess you can continue to deny it if you don't actually go see it, maybe if you close your eyes really tight...

GZ Woodward at the mormon Sorensen Genetics labs do these same DNA testing and analysis, their results published in open peer reviewed papers and journals show that your little hoop is either fictitious or not difficult to deal with in the scientific world. Your little rant only goes to show your inability or unwillingness to look outside of your safe little box at reality.

Speaking of safe little boxes of reality, can you get good test results from garbage data?...(No, and The Sorenson lab has yet to get a valid result (According to their website) back past the 1700's for that reason...)

DU As I stated earlier, the DNA tests only matter if you start with a clean sample, and keep it clean as you go, the Book of Mormon people didn't do either thing.

GZ I cited numerous studies, as recent as this year, show me where mormon DNA experts have open published that the 2009 study was flawed in this aspect (OOPs, mormon DNA experts were involved in that study).

Really, why didn't you link to them, I'd be interested in reading that. Oh yeah, you don't link, your word (edited after the fact) should be good enough... (LOL!)

DU OK, let's talk Mitochondria, it's only passed by women to all their children (male and female) and it only is a good trace if you don't add other women from outside the group being traced, oops Well there goes that one.

GZ And where did these women come from.

PRECISELY the problem, the Book of Mormon adds tons of people with out telling us where they come from, unless you assume... wait, Good scientists don't do that.

GZ The bom documents that all that came to the new world in the Nephi era were from the vicinity of Israel, of semitic people groups.

More of the if I repeat this often enough people might just believe it? The Book of Mormon documents slaves joining the group, and does not tell their origin, probably not Jerusalem, and worse, they keep joining groups in the Americas who's origin is also not spelled out!

GZ They would be carrying common mtDNA.

Not if they are A) from different tribes of Israel, or B) include slave DNA from who knows where, or joined with people from outside of Israel.

GZ Since the native Americans, according to the bom, originated form this group, even if one woman carried something other than X, there would be an overwhelming abundance of X still.

Absolutely wrong, Nephi's Mother would pass her mtDNA down to her sons, but their children would be passing down the mtDNA of their wives (who'd genealogy we don't know past their Dad). Nephi's Children would have his Wife's mtDNA Laman and Lemual's would have the mtDNA of their wives. Not necessarily Hebrew, especially if there was more than one woman, like from the larger groups the Nephites and Lamanites met.

Try learning a bit about Mitochondrial DNA from the Sorenson institute. The green woman is your female from Jerusalem, the Grey people are everyone else, then you have a war... She dies.

DU One foreign women would not be able to produce enough mtDNA to so overwhelm the Amerindian population genetic base to eliminate evidences of semitic X.

That entirely depends on her and her offspring's reproductive success comparative to the success of the competing genomes. As for the non sex genes (Autosomal DNA), recombination upon reproduction means you randomly throw away on half of each parent's genome, this is where you run into statistics and math (this is not rocks, or counting with them, but complex formulas which is my territory) It is easy for a population that keeps having mass die offs to radically alter it's DNA record so that you can't really tell where they came from.

DU Saying that he was a "Pure descendant of Lehi" can only mean it was possible not to be a descendant of Lehi, or a partial descendant.

GZ Well DUH, DUh, I explained that several times now. So none of his predecessors interbred with Lamanites. Further a reflection on that white and delightsome aspect of mormonism.

DU What is that? Is that supposed to make me mad? LOL! I am never "on script" I do all my writing on my own and don't rely on anti sites to feed me issues.

GZ Every one of those groups had their alleged origin in the area of Israel and would have carried semitic DNA markers. No, your sites represent data presented before UFO conventions. LOL

Pulease, you don't have a clue what you are talking about, the Book of Mormon has many references to peoples that are not traced back to Israel or anywhere for that matter. Ether 1: 6

6 And on this wise do I give the account. He that wrote this record was Ether, and he was a descendant of Coriantor.

Who the Heck is Coriantor? Oh yeah, he was one of the descendents of the Guys that left Biblical lands at the time of the tower of Babel... That's gonna be some intereting DNA ya got there... The Full Geneology back to the Brother of Jared is listed here.
2 Ne. 3: 4

4 For behold, thou art the fruit of my loins; and I am a descendant of Joseph who was carried captive into Egypt. And great were the covenants of the Lord which he made unto Joseph.

Joseph, not Judah, Judah is what you have to compare with now, but you'd have to do deep studies to connect that, even if you had a pure Tribe of Joseph DNA person it'd be difficult.

Alma 17: 21

21 And thus Ammon was carried before the king who was over the land of Ishmael; and his name was Lamoni; and he was a descendant of Ishmael.

Remember Ishmael? The Friend of Lehi's who's geneology we don't know (More supposition required here...)

Ishmaels's wife, was she an Israelite? It's her mtDNA that Nephi's, Laman's and Lemual's children would be carrying, not Lehi's... First Nephi 16:7

7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, took one of the daughters of Ishmael to wife; and also, my brethren took of the daughters of Ishmael to wife; and also Zoram took the eldest daughter of Ishmael to wife.

So, who was the mother of these daughters of Ishmael? What was her genealogy since that is what you want to track with your mtDNA tests, we simply don't know what MT DNA the descendants of Nephi, Laman and Lemual would look like, yet you want to claim conclusive proof, let's look at more of what the Book of Mormon actually says about descendants. Alma 54: 23

23 I am Ammoron, and a descendant of Zoram, whom your fathers pressed and brought out of Jerusalem.

So we have descendants of a slave as part of the genetic makeup at a minimum here.

Mosiah 25: 2

2 Now there were not so many of the children of Nephi, or so many of those who were descendants of Nephi, as there were of the people of Zarahemla, who was a descendant of Mulek, and those who came with him into the wilderness.

We have a group larger than the group with Lehi, who intermarry with the Nephites, and all we know is their leader was a descendant of Mulek? We don't know where any of the rest of them came from, if they came over in one group, joined up with others once here, etc. This is the largest group of Women that we have listed, and we don't know if they were Hebrew ancestry, we don't know if they were slaves, we don't know. No self respecting Population Geneticist is going to hang his reputation on this assumption, and say he can prove the Book of Moron wrong.

Now, in light of all this (and I can pull more quotes from the Book of Mormon if needed), we have this quote:
3 Ne. 5: 20

20 I am Mormon, and a pure descendant of Lehi. I have reason to bless my God and my Savior Jesus Christ, that he brought our fathers out of the land of Jerusalem, (and no one knew it save it were himself and those whom he brought out of that land) and that he hath given me and my people so much knowledge unto the salvation of our souls.

Which Godzilla tries to explain by saying Mormon was saying he only had Nephite blood. The assertion that this is a statement of purity from Lamanite blood makes no sense. Mormon would have simply stated that.
Lurkers, please note Nephi and Laman came over with the same group, both were full brothers, (sons of the same Father (Lehi) and Mother (Sariah). Both the Nephites and Lamanites Married in with other peoples, and Godzilla thinks this is a racist statement, saying his ancestors never intermarried with his brother's descendants.

The "Science" used to debunk the Book of moron might as well have been presented at the UFO convention Godzilla likes to talk about. On top of this he is rude rendering my nick as part of DUh. (which is really pathetic) To me this just indicates that's all he's got, rudeness, ignorance marketed as "scholarship" Guilt by Association, Red Herrings, and as I showed in my last post, he edits his and my words, thus editing history to try and make his points, last but not least, Godzilla posts these huge posts in hopes that people will just give up and not respond to him. (If you do respond and don't address every irrelavent detail, he can claim avoidance as yet another Red Herring.

Godzilla, Actually address the issue for once, If as I am saying the Book of Momron shows an intermarrying with lots of people from unknown places (possibly Asia and Siberia, the Book of Mormon does not say) then does any of these DNA Studies prove it wrong?

If the Book of Mormon indeed talks of genetic promiscuity by the party of Lehi once in America, can anything be proven genetically?

You will of course maintain that all these groups came from the Middle east and therefore can be traced back there, claim all you want, the book of Mormon, However, The Book of Mormon Addresses this too:

2 Nephi 1:5

5 But, said he, notwithstanding our afflictions, we have obtained a land of promise, a land which is choice above all other lands; a land which the Lord God hath covenanted with me should be a land for the inheritance of my seed. Yea, the Lord hath covenanted this land unto me, and to my children forever, and also all those who should be led out of other countries by the hand of the Lord.

"and also all those who should be led out of other countries by the hand of the Lord"... How frustrating it must be to be outsmarted by a backwoods farboy who died a hundred and fifty plus years ago. There is only one way Joseph could have dictated the Book of Mormon, and that is by the Gift and power of God and all the argumnets in Hell cannot bring it down once a man has God's word that it's true.

You know, I'm just going to snip this here, you have added so many Red Herrings that people may be losing track of the focus of this thread, DNA and the Book of Mormon, then you start using You keep messing with my name, which is Argumentum ad Hominem by changing my initials to DUh, and all it shows it hat you are ideologically bankrupt and have no way to fight back via legitimate means. so, I am going to cut off the rest of your post and my responses, and leave you with this. Prove the Book of Mormon says that all the People in the America's came from Jerusalem, or admit that you can't, on this hangs your whole argument about DNA and the Book of Mormon. Stop beating about the bush, you just look silly doing it.

DNA studies require a sample of DNA to start with and if the original sample was corrupted, then you will get corrupted results.

Nor that you over estimate your intelligence DU. Which of the thousands and thousands of samples that have been collected been “contaminated”? Cite the report (crickets).

Let me give you Yet another example, let's say we start with a small group of people from Israel, then we marry in a larger group of Chinese people and wait several thousand years, keeping just this pool of DNA going. In several thousand years you will be unlikely to prove you had original DNA from Israel, it just get's worse as you kill off major groups who were preserving their heritage (like the Nephites) and darn near impossible if you start having large groups of people die off a few hundred years before you do your testing while being corrupted by still another group of DNA not from Israel.

So you are going to deny your prophets now. Your prophets and apostles have taught since the beginning that the Amerindians are direct descendants of lehi. Or are you going to admit that your missionaries have been lying to Amerindians (as well as Polynesians too) all these years. That is what your scenario does – it makes a liar out of your prophet. Who speaks for the inspiration of God – professors in BYU now?

As a valid comparison on corruption of samples which you apparently are too obtuse to understand, just keep concentrating on minutia, maybe the big problems with your analysis will go away... (NOT!)

You were the one making the claim that dna studies = blood typing.

ROTFLOL! Really? Simon Southerton is an example of this scientific community of people who assume the Book of Mormon says there is a pure enough sample to get a no? LOL!

You really have a fixation on him don’t you. I have cited numerous other papers by other scientists, pointed you to the Nat’l Geo Society Genome project. Lurkers will note that Du is incapable of citing anything outside of the apologetics faith rumor mill or UFO sites. Even this “contaminated DNA” (which really shows ignorance in the transmission of DNA markers now widely used in science) didn’t stop Crandall and others in doing the work with the Lemba tribe – a group of Jews identified by genetic markers to be Jews – an exact parallel that DU is in denial of.

They are on a DVD published by FairLDS.org, and published by Fair on Youtube, but I guess you can continue to deny it if you don't actually go see it, maybe if you close your eyes really tight...

This is not a real publication DU, and I know the lurkers out there are smart enough to see through the obfuscation. They are afraid to publish outside of their echo chamber where other professionals in the field can critically review their work. American Journal of Human Genetics, American Journal of Anthropology and others are just waiting for them to publish their studies with them. A DVD or youtube is not a scientific reviewed publication DU – and you know that they are cowards to have their works peer-reviewed.

Speaking of safe little boxes of reality, can you get good test results from garbage data?...(No, and The Sorenson lab has yet to get a valid result (According to their website) back past the 1700's for that reason...)

Apples to oranges DU, the lack of success you are claiming are regarding an individual basis, not larger scale people groups. However, you continue to fail to read the entire article. The failure was due to the lady (Wilson’s) own genealogy research. Sorenson Lab found the mtDNA match for her across the Atlantic in Africa. Once again, your proof actually PROVES the methodology – not denies it.

Really, why didn't you link to them, I'd be interested in reading that. Oh yeah, you don't link, your word (edited after the fact) should be good enough... (LOL!)

Lurkers will notice the dishonesty here. However, I’ll post these again.

The Bauu Institute
Am J Hum Genet. 2003 November; 73(5): 1178–1190.
Current Biology, Volume 19, Issue 1, 13 January 2009, Pages 1-8
Genetic Variation and Population Structure in Native Americans
National Geographic Genome Project
Other books -

Crawford, Michael H. (2001). The Origins of Native Americans: Evidence from Anthropological Genetics . Cambridge University Press.

Crawford, Michael H. (2006). Anthropological Genetics: Theory, Methods, and Applications . Cambridge University Press.

Jones, Peter N. (2004). American Indian mtDNA, Y Chromosome Genetic Data, and the Peopling of North America . Bauu Press.

Powell, Joseph F. (2005). The First Americans: Race, Evolution and the Origin of Native Americans . Cambridge University Press.

Wells, Spencer. (2004). The Journey of Man: A Genetic Odyssey . Random House.

PRECISELY the problem, the Book of Mormon adds tons of people with out telling us where they come from, unless you assume... wait, Good scientists don't do that.

Once again, DU misrepresents the bom.. all of the peoples he has cited in the past have their origin in either Jerusalem of the middle east in general and would carry DNA markers characteristic of the region

More of the if I repeat this often enough people might just believe it? The Book of Mormon documents slaves joining the group, and does not tell their origin, probably not Jerusalem, and worse, they keep joining groups in the Americas who's origin is also not spelled out!

So you are telling me that Joseph Smith is a liar then in his own hand.

When I was about 17 years old I saw another vision of angels in the night season after I had retired to bed I had not been asleep, … all at once the room was illuminated above the brightness of the sun an angel appeared before me … he said unto me I am a messenger sent from God, be faithful and keep his commandments in all things, he told me of a sacred record which was written on plates of gold, I saw in the vision the place where they were deposited, he said the Indians were the literal descendants of Abraham (The Papers of Joseph Smith, Vol. 2, Journal, 1832-1842, edited by Dean C. Jessee, Deseret Book Company, Salt Lake City, copyright 1992 Corporation of the President, pp. 69-70, emphasis added).

Not if they are A) from different tribes of Israel, or B) include slave DNA from who knows where, or joined with people from outside of Israel.

The men of Israel would carry the Y chromosome of Abraham as his descendant, and the few slaves (provide numbers DU) would not overwhelm Lehi’s family

Absolutely wrong, Nephi's Mother would pass her mtDNA down to her sons, but their children would be passing down the mtDNA of their wives (who'd genealogy we don't know past their Dad).

How laughable DU – show everyone you are drowning once again in your ignorance of the subject. The mtDNA would follow down and be promulgated by every daughter and not affected by the men (that is why it is mtDNA). Lurkers are invited to go to the Nat’l Geo Genome site listed above and see how this works – since DU doesn’t want to accurately present it inspite of having access to it over numerous times.

Try learning a bit about Mitochondrial DNA from the Sorenson institute. The green woman is your female from Jerusalem, the Grey people are everyone else, then you have a war... She dies.

Once again, DUh is unable to grasp the concept of the haplogroups that are associated with the regional setting of Israel. The video at the link is on an individual basis – looking at it at a microscopic level. Population genetics look at the haplogroups, which for Israelis is group X..

Pulease, you don't have a clue what you are talking about, the Book of Mormon has many references to peoples that are not traced back to Israel or anywhere for that matter. Ether 1: 6 6 And on this wise do I give the account. He that wrote this record was Ether, and he was a descendant of Coriantor.

That Ether was a descendent of Coriantor ends when they were all killed in the final battle of annihilation. Or are your calling your prophets a liar again?

Joseph, not Judah, Judah is what you have to compare with now, but you'd have to do deep studies to connect that, even if you had a pure Tribe of Joseph DNA person it'd be difficult.

Joseph carries the Y Chromosone of Abraham as well as Jacob – pure as it gets

Ishmaels's wife, was she an Israelite? It's her mtDNA that Nephi's, Laman's and Lemual's children would be carrying, not Lehi's... First Nephi 16:7

The Y chromosones would be passed. Nothings says that the women were not Israelites, but even so, they carried the middle eastern haplogroup X. Or are you calling your prophets a liar again?
Spencer W. Kimball quoted in The Ensign of July 1971, pp. 7ff saying,
The term Lamanite includes all Indians and Indian mixtures, such as the Polynesians, the Guatemalans, the Peruvians, as well as the Sioux, the Apache, the Mohawk, the Navajo, and others. It is a large group of great people. (p. 7) … There are no blessings, of all the imaginable ones, to which you are not entitled—you, the Lamanites—when you are righteous. You are of royal blood, the children of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, and Lehi

Your assertions have been refuted over and over again so far. Lurkers will note that population group studies show the movements of people groups like those in the middle east and Israel over history. The Lemba tribe is a prime example of the capabilities of it being done. DUh want to hide the people of the bom in a postage stamp sized area in central America, an act that makes his prophets and leaders out to be liars and worse. Please checkout my links above, as it puts the science involved into better perspective and shows the hollowness of DU’s failed and flawed arguments.

Lurkers, please note Nephi and Laman came over with the same group, both were full brothers, (sons of the same Father (Lehi) and Mother (Sariah). Both the Nephites and Lamanites Married in with other peoples, and Godzilla thinks this is a racist statement, saying his ancestors never intermarried with his brother's descendants.

What do the prophets and leaders say about the descendants of Lehi?

Elder Gene R. Cook (First Quorum of the Seventy
My family and I are presently living in South America among the Lamanites — the children of Lehi, the people of the Book of Mormon, a people of great promise. For a number of years we have been witnesses to spiritual miracles among that people. (Gene R. Cook, “Miracles among the Lamanites,” Ensign, Nov. 1980, 67.)

The redemption of the Lamanite as a remnant of scattered Israel, in accordance with Book of Mormon prophecy, is one of the vital responsibilities and opportunities of the restored church
As the gospel is taught in various nations of the Americas and on the Pacific islands, missionary programs for Lamanite and mestizo segments of the population might well be adapted to the language and the ethnic position of the descendants of Father Lehi in each nation. Missionary work in Bolivia, for instance, is done in Spanish and in two Indian languages, Quechua and Aymará (“What Is a Lamanite?” Ensign, Sept. 1972, 62ff).

Spencer W. Kimball
With pride I tell those who come to my office that a Lamanite is a descendant of one Lehi who left Jerusalem six hundred years before Christ and with his family crossed the mighty deep and landed in America. And Lehi and his family became the ancestors of all of the Indian and Mestizo tribes in North and South and Central America and in the islands of the sea, for in the middle of their history there were those who left America in ships of their making and went to the islands of the sea. (page 7)
There are no blessings, of all the imaginable ones, to which you are not entitled—you, the Lamanites—when you are righteous. You are of royal blood, the children of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, and Lehi (“Of Royal Blood,” Ensign, July 1971, p. 10)

The "Science" used to debunk the Book of moron might as well have been presented at the UFO convention Godzilla likes to talk about. On top of this he is rude rendering my nick as part of DUh. (which is really pathetic) To me this just indicates that's all he's got, rudeness, ignorance marketed as "scholarship" Guilt by Association, Red Herrings, and as I showed in my last post, he edits his and my words, thus editing history to try and make his points, last but not least, Godzilla posts these huge posts in hopes that people will just give up and not respond to him. (If you do respond and don't address every irrelavent detail, he can claim avoidance as yet another Red Herring.

Remarkable, it would be laughable if it weren’t so dishonestly presented. The sampling of publications and articles I’ve posted above and earlier are not the kinds of things presented at UFO conventions. However, it is documented history that DU looks to such sources for confirmation of his faith. His editing of my posts and links are history too, but lurkers are smart enough to be able to follow the links backward.

Godzilla, Actually address the issue for once, If as I am saying the Book of Momron shows an intermarrying with lots of people from unknown places (possibly Asia and Siberia, the Book of Mormon does not say) then does any of these DNA Studies prove it wrong?

DU, your prophets are calling your interpretation of the bom a lie. Even former president Hinkley said in this regard - “I sense a great spirit of gratitude for this new temple,” remarked President Hinckley. “The Saints have waited a very, very long time.” He continued: “It has been a very interesting thing to see the descendants of Father Lehi in the congregations that have gathered in the temple. So very many of these people have the blood of Lehi in their veins, and it is just an intriguing thing to see their tremendous response and their tremendous interest.” (Remarks at the dedication of the Guayaquil, Ecuador temple, reported in “News of the Church,” Ensign, Oct. 1999, p. 74)

Who is lying DU and who speaks for the spiritual truth you claim supersedes science fact? Is is your prophets or professors and apologists at BYU? 150+ years of mormon teaching have the Amerindians being descendants of Lehi and Israel. The bom does not say otherwise, only the professors at BYU trying to salvage their vanishing geography theory.

So, if smith is correct, then the boys at byu are lying, for smith wrote:

Well, DUh, looks like smith outsmarted the boys at byu as well.