Replies

It is totally illogical for you or anyone to think you know what was in Joseph's mind. However, since Joseph had every expectation that in a court of law he would be exonerated there is no reason to break out of jail and run out to the waiting mob (file this in the you have got to be kidding file!)

Yet you take it upon yourself to know what was in Joey's mind.

Um... Many people buy a gun when threatened. It's called self defense. I am even in favor of those who oppose me having the right and ability (including weapons) to defend themselves, you? (Do you really support the second amendment?)

DUh, he was in custody, I see a lot of guns smuggled into our jails today - gotta support the 2d amendment.

On June 27th, 200 armed men stormed the jail. The jailer saw the mob and told Smith. Smith, assuming they were the Nauvoo Legion, told the jailer they were coming to rescue himThe General.

Hardly, maybe you just don know the meanings of the words you throw about so easily Dictionary.com Martyr:
1. a person who willingly suffers death rather than renounce his or her religion.

Note the terms carefully DU, it is that context thing.

First and foremost – what charges was he in jail for – being a mormon or because he unlawfully ordered the destruction of the Smith-critical Nauvoo Expositor and committed the capital offense of treason by declaring martial law. It was the latter DUh.

Did he willingly or did he fight his death? Was it for his religion or because he was leader of a rebellion

Right, arrested for treason and ordering the destruction of a newspaper printing press. The General’s religion was secondary importance to him at the time. He was intent upon building a theocracy and had even been crowned king.

Joseph was killed by a mob of armed men after being abandoned by the Governor (who removed all the troops who were supposed to protect the jail) this is martyrdom as it happened to may of the apostles. If Joesph had publicly renounced his calling and denied his vision from God he knew he would have been spared, he died for his faith. EG he was martyred. Whether or not you believe his faith does not matter a whit.

Martyr comes from the Greek to witness (martys). The act of witnessing is called martyia in the Greek and signifies a legal testimony. Because of the fact at the time of the apostles and the patristic fathers that the act of giving testimony of Christ resulted in death and often an ignoble death, the term "martyr" began to be synonymous with death because of being a Christian.
Was Joseph killed as a direct result of his testimony of Christ and the Church? Smith was not asked to renounce his faith or die. No, joey was jailed because he destroyed a printing press of a paper that divulged his polygamous acts and declared martial law. This together with the atrocities that the Mormon's took part in, in the killing of innocents in Missouri and the rise of the political and physical threat from the Nauvoo legion etc, the locals could be construed as acting out of fear for their lives.

Actually, it is, consider the following: Matt. 7: 1-2
Mark 11: 25-26
Well, at least the Bible says so...

What DU fails to list are scriptures that tell Christians to judge – we are called to Judge righteous judgement (John 7:24). Paul writes:
1Co 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
1Co 6:4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
1Co 6:5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?

We are to identify and judge false teachers and prophets (Mt 24:11, 24; Mk 13:22; Acts 13:6; 2 Pet 2:1).

As a mormon who is improperly uses Matthew 7:1 DU is himself guilty of the very sin he is accusing the Christian? Certainly the DU believes that his position is correct (that people should not speak out against Mormonism), but what right does he then have to tell others that what they are doing is also wrong. Is this not passing judgment? Indeed this is a certain contradiction, and if his interpretation of Matthew 7:1 is correct, then there is condemnation falling right back on DU’s head.

This is far removed from the facts which I admit are difficult to explain, kind of like those who claim that the ten commandments forbid polygamy when confronted with Moses' plurality of wives.

Fact of the matter is that there is no evidence that Moses’ first wife was still alive at the time. Remember, Moses was well over 80 at this time and Zipporah was very old as well. To say otherwise is an assumption not supported in the Bible.

Been there, had that discussion, and often, Google ""mia gune" Greek" and (as of the time I write this response)) you will find the first result is a PDF file called Husbandofonewife.pdf. this is a scholarly document written by a non Mormon about polygamy, you might be surprised, anyway, knowledge is power, read it please.

If knowledge is power, your generator is out of fuel. You continue to promulgate a lie concerning the translation and contex of the scriptural passage. It is clear to greek scholars that mia is an cardinal number. Your link championing your cause argues it is an indefinite article. In one of the examples given (Mt 8:19) its is used eiv grammateuv or a scribe denoting a singular. In fact all three of his examples are the same – denoting a singular individual or city or item. His faultly logic then tries to place an indefinitie article into 1 Timothy 3:2,12 and Titus 1:6 as as husband(s) of a wife. Here the author’s Greek errs, stating the passage as mia gune aner is more literally translated one woman man . Paul would be contradicting himself if he were refering to polygamy since it as inappropriate for all Christians, not just elders (1 Cor 7:2)
I Timothy 5:9 tells that the enlisted widow (a widow supported by the church) must have been the "wife of one husband." The construction of these two verses is identical. They are written within the same context by the same author. Therefore, it the two verses should be viewed similarly. Thus the translators yielded the passage wife of one husband, not wife of A husband.

No, it is apparent that this scholarly document has erred in the consistent application of the use of mia in this passage.

Finally, his application (husband of a wife) fails to recognize that even as an indefinite article, the word still carries the concept of one, as his earlier examples prove.

DU It is totally illogical for you or anyone to think you know what was in Joseph's mind. However, since Joseph had every expectation that in a court of law he would be exonerated there is no reason to break out of jail and run out to the waiting mob (file this in the you have got to be kidding file!)

GZ Yet you take it upon yourself to know what was in Joey's mind.

Joseph said if he could just make it to trial he would be acquitted, and the Mob knew this. He had threats from the Mob continually, this is all documented. This is not mind reading, but you are asserting that a man given a single pistol (a pepperbox) which was designed for self defense as it was not reloadable or reliable is going to break out of a Jail where he is "safe" into the open where a mob of men armed with rifles have been threatening to kill him on sight. Are you out of your mind? Wait, I withdraw the question... Your posts stand as evidence enough no need to invoke the fifth amendment.

GZ DUh, he was in custody, I see a lot of guns smuggled into our jails today - gotta support the 2d amendment.

and you see a lot of jails like the one in Carthage in use today <Sarc>

GZ On June 27th, 200 armed men stormed the jail. The jailer saw the mob and told Smith. Smith, assuming they were the Nauvoo Legion, told the jailer they were coming to rescue him

LOL! Reading comprehension? Joseph never said the Mob was coming to rescue him.

Joesph did send a letter to a lawyer, which the Mob sought to take from his messenger by force. Joseph Smith's Death

Almon W. Babbitt took the letter and left the jail. He handed it to Jones, with directions to take it to Quincy forthwith. The guard being aware of the letter, told the mob that, "old Joe" had sent orders to raise the Nauvoo Legion to come and rescue him. The mob gathered around Jones, and demanded the letter; some of them wanted to take it from him by force, and said that Jones should not get out of Carthage alive, as a dozen men had started off with their rifles to waylay him in the woods. Having previously ordered his horse, Jones took advantage of their disagreement, and started off at full speed. He, by mistake, took the Warsaw road, and so avoided the men who were lying in wait for him. When he emerged on the prairie, he saw the Governor and his posse, whereupon he left the Warsaw road for the Nauvoo road.

I assume, the Source of this Quote being the UTLM you will not dispute the error of your statement as evidenced by their site... Since they are anti Mormon as well...

ROTFLOL! anti's who can't shoot straight, LOL! Our bestist friends.!.!.!

GZ First and foremost – what charges was he in jail for – being a mormon or because he unlawfully ordered the destruction of the Smith-critical Nauvoo Expositor and committed the capital offense of treason by declaring martial law. It was the latter DUh.

He was charged with Treason, and with competent representation would have been acquitted, which is one of the reasons the Mob tried to keep his lawyer from visiting him in jail (the link above talks about this, also from the UTLM.

Face it Godzilla, when it comes To Joseph Smith and Nauvoo, a guy who grew up there will know a bit more about it than you will from misreading anti sites. The UTLM, at least has his Martyrdom right, even though they don't call it that.

GZ Did he willingly or did he fight his death? Was it for his religion or because he was leader of a rebellion

Did the Christians in the Lion's den fight for their lives because they would not renounce Jesus? If I am asked by a Muslim if I am a Christian and I say yes even though he has a gun to my head and then I try to take it do I lose my status as a myrter? You place such fine lines on things to try to keep your perspective from crumbling, it's really funny to watch.

GZ Right, arrested for treason and ordering the destruction of a newspaper printing press. The General’s religion was secondary importance to him at the time. He was intent upon building a theocracy and had even been crowned king.

Sigh, the City Council ordered the Destruction of the press, according to the best legal advice they had at their disposal it was legal to do so. Not only was there a three day deliberation, but Mormon presses were routinely destroyed by mobs and anti momrons. Tit for Tat was more common then than now.

GZ Martyr comes from the Greek to witness (martys). The act of witnessing is called martyia in the Greek and signifies a legal testimony. Because of the fact at the time of the apostles and the patristic fathers that the act of giving testimony of Christ resulted in death and often an ignoble death, the term "martyr" began to be synonymous with death because of being a Christian.

Joseph's final words were... "Oh Lord, my God!". Also from the UTLM, same article (come on this isn't even fun anymore, can't you get anything right?

GZ Was Joseph killed as a direct result of his testimony of Christ and the Church?

Yes, he was for if he had recanted his faith they would have let him go.

GZ Smith was not asked to renounce his faith or die.

I had actually seen a light, and in the midst of that light I saw two Personages, and they did in reality speak to me; and though I was hated and persecuted for saying that I had seen a vision, yet it was true. . . . I knew it, and I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it. Hmm, Joseph knew why he was persecuted. Are you honestly saying that if he had been as you claim a philandering crook and story teller, but had not claimed to restore the church of Jesus Christ to the earth you would be here decrying his name still? Again, you're just not credible, your statements fall of their own weight.

GZ No, joey was jailed because he destroyed a printing press of a paper that divulged his polygamous acts and declared martial law.

Mormon presses were routinely destroyed by anti Mormons, none of them was sot by a mob of Mormons.

Martial law was declared during Hurricane Katrina, among many other times by Government officials, none of them to my knowledge was shot by a mob for it.

GZ This together with the atrocities that the Mormon's took part in, in the killing of innocents in Missouri and the rise of the political and physical threat from the Nauvoo legion etc, the locals could be construed as acting out of fear for their lives.

LOL! Do you even know who you are talking to? I count Govoner Boggs (reluctantly) in my pedigree!

The Missourians were the murdering thieving lot they killed Mormons by the wagon load, some Mormons got tired of being slaughtered and fought back. It was a war and a war in which My ancestors abused the power of government and violated the Constitution of the United States of America to persicute a religion.

You display no knowledge of the "Mormon Wars". I Know all about them, I grew up in the area, remember? We used to drive around Missouri because the Extermination order was still in effect until about 1972.

Bah, it's not worth shouting into deaf ears. Truly does the Bible say "Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not: Which is the inspiration of the English Proverb "There are none so blind as those who will not see." Penned in 1546 By John Heywood, another ancestor of mine... GZ What DU fails to list are scriptures that tell Christians to judge – we are called to Judge righteous judgment (John 7:24)

Yes, you are to discern you are to judge courses of action and decide which angels to follow, decisions of legality, yes, sure. Judging means souls? that is not for you or I that is for the master, and you are not him.

GZ We are to identify and judge false teachers and prophets (Mt 24:11, 24; Mk 13:22; Acts 13:6; 2 Pet 2:1).

Very well, I identify you as a false teacher and as a false prophet. Happy?

GZ As a mormon who is improperly uses Matthew 7:1 DU is himself guilty of the very sin he is accusing the Christian?

First, I did not "improperly use Matt 7:1" you will find that usage common among all Christendom, Second, I am a Christian, Jesus told me so.

GZ Certainly the DU believes that his position is correct (that people should not speak out against Mormonism), but what right does he then have to tell others that what they are doing is also wrong.

Similarly, I believe you think your position is correct, that damning men to hell for following the Bible and the Book of Mormon together is a Christlike endeavor. As fro right to tell men what they are doing is wrong, I have been galled to warn my brtherin! I would be a poor follower of Christ indeed if I shrank from telling all men everywhere to repent! What amazes me is that ant Mormons claim to be Christian yet discourage others from Praying to God to Find out if a Book that purports to be his word is really from him and instead tall their fellow men to rely on them! That to me is incredible!

GZ Is this not passing judgment? Indeed this is a certain contradiction, and if his interpretation of Matthew 7:1 is correct, then there is condemnation falling right back on DU’s head. I have judged no man here, I have spoken the word of God as he gives it to me. I have made mistakes and made poor use at times of his word, however, I have never said anyone was damned, nor have I condemned anyone, instead, I invite men to come away from their false beliefs and come unto the light and life that is Christ Jesus. Thus I labor in my poor way for My savior, My Lord, My God.

GZ Fact of the matter is that there is no evidence that Moses’ first wife was still alive at the time. Remember, Moses was well over 80 at this time and Zipporah was very old as well. To say otherwise is an assumption not supported in the Bible.

Ohhh Kaaay, So the Bible does not say "Moses Was Polygamous", LOL! Then again it does not say "Moses was not polygamous" God does not seem to think it's worth talking about, the wives only come up when they become part of the story. Don't you thihnk it's odd that if only having one wife were that important God would have them write in that Zipporah had died? Well he didn't as for Zipporah being old, so? Is It OK to marry a second (or third) wife if your first one (or two) gets old? The only reason we even know about "The Ethiopian Woman" is because Miriam (Moses sister) didn't like her and was cursed with Leprosy. It's also interesting to note that God talks of how a Prophet is called (an it fits Joseph Smith's experiences to a "T". Numbers 12:6-8. BTW, Miriam who was Moses' older sister is still around, and she is the one who put him in the rushes, and you are claiming that Zipporah, who would have been much younger than Moses must be dead, or Moses would not have married another woman, interesting assumption there FRiend.

GZ If knowledge is power, your generator is out of fuel.

How drole, have you hear this one when they were handing out brains you thought they said Trains and took one out of state... Boy this stuff reminds me of second grade, that's the last time I heard these two "witticisms" may they not be recalled to memory again for a similar length of time.

GZ You continue to promulgate a lie concerning the translation and context of the scriptural passage. It is clear to Greek scholars that mia is an cardinal number.

You know, i don't speak Greek, but I can read. When I go to the Google Search I linked you to, I find all sorts of "Scholars" you claim don't exist debating the meaning of Mia Gune, and they don't all fall on one side of the issue (which was my point, it's open for debate) and since you posted no links yourself, I must conclude that you were willing to go on your word alone only because you could not find anything to support you. Admittedly that is an assumption, but hey you keep insisting that Absence of Evidence is evidence od absence. There fore using your logic, the absence of evidence presented by you is proof that you have no evidence.

AHHHH! It's fun Being me, you know? Well, I guess you wouldn't

GZ Your link championing your cause argues it is an indefinite article.

So one link wasn't enough? Why didn't you say so!

Husbandofonewife.pdf
One Wife In Timothy 3 and Titus 1
One of my favorite pages, this Guy is not a Momron, but as a "Christain", he makes us look pretty tame Objections to Polygamy from Christians
Here is a quote from this Guy's page:

1) The ‘Adam and Eve’ Defence
...
One wife was enough for Adam to start with. We don’t know if he took any more wives because the Bible doesn’t say. Another way of looking at it would be to say that in the beginning Adam married every woman that was available. The Bible does not draw a one man/one woman rule from Adam and Eve, so why should we? We could just as easily form a rule to marry all available women, but we would be very busy, and the rule just as valid.

This Guy may be a bit nuts, but I like the spunk with which he attacks a thorny issue!

I'm gonna snip out a bunch of dry comentary that is posted withoutht the benefit of support <--Snip-->

GZ No, it is apparent that this scholarly document has erred in the consistent application of the use of mia in this passage.

I'm So happy you have put this issue to rest, I mean now that the Great Godzilla (A Greek Speaking Dinasaur) has spoken, who could possibly have anything more to say (chuckle)

GZ Finally, his application (husband of a wife) fails to recognize that even as an indefinite article, the word still carries the concept of one, as his earlier examples prove.

Godzilla, Paul was an educated man, please explain why he did this: 1 timothy 3:1-7

It's good to desire to be a bishop.

We interrupt this listing of qualifications to make a doctrinal statement, "Polygamy is wrong." Carry on with listing of Qualifications for Bishops.
Bishops must be Viligent.
Bishops must be sober.
Bishops must have Good behavior.
Bishops must be Hospitable.
Bishops must be a good teacher.
Bishops must not be a drunk.
Bishops must not be a striker.
Bishops must not be Greedy.
Bishops must be Patient.
Bishops must Not be a brawler.
Bishops must not be covetous.
Bishops must be able to rule his house well.
Bishops must be able to rule his Children (so he can run God's church.)
Bishops must not be a novice.
Bishops must not be Proud.
Bishops must be of good report of non members.

Does this "structure" (I use the term loosely) seem like something Paul a highly educated man would use?

Now let's look at how I see these same scriptures: 1 timothy 3:1-7

It's good to desire to be a bishop.
Bishops must be Married.
Bishops must be Viligent.
Bishops must be sober.
Bishops must have Good behavior.
Bishops must be Hospitable.
Bishops must be a good teacher.
Bishops must not be a drunk.
Bishops must not be a striker.
Bishops must not be Greedy.
Bishops must be Patient.
Bishops must Not be a brawler.
Bishops must not be covetous.
Bishops must be able to rule his house well.
Bishops must be able to rule his Children (so he can run God's church.)
Bishops must not be a novice.
Bishops must not be Proud.
Bishops must be of good report of non members.

I think Context is an important thing, and "in context" your interpretation is just silly.

Have a day...