Posted on 01/28/2009 10:12:41 PM PST by Gamecock
Go figure. I guess then it might be said that he prefers the word of Swedenborg, over the word of the Lord, every time?
and through the windows of the limo, whilst gorging on celestial caviar and champagne,
Is that what they're talking about here?:
Q. 27.What dost thou mean by the providence of God?A.The almighty and everywhere present power of God; (a)whereby, as it were by his hand, he upholds and governs (b)heaven, earth, and all creatures; so that herbs and grass, rain and drought, (c)fruitful and barren years, meat and drink, health and sickness, (d)riches and poverty, (e) yea, and all things come, not by chance, but be his fatherly hand. (f)
Q. 28. What advantage is it to us to know that God has created, and by his providence does still uphold all things?
A.That we may be patient in adversity; (a)thankful in prosperity; (b)and that in all things, which may hereafter befall us, we place our firm trust in our faithful God and Father, (c) that nothing shall separate us from his love; (d) since all creatures are so in his hand, that without his will they cannot so much as move. (e)
Pretty grim world, where it all just kind of happens.
Your first statement is Scripturally wrong, your second one is right. Where are you within Christianity?
DaveMSmith holds to Sweedenborgianism. See post 162 and post 140 in this thread.
Some people just know more than God does
Craaaaazy, man...The bible you are referring is your religion's Catholic verion put together hundreds of years after the scriptures were in circulation saving people left and right...
The Bible is the product of the Church
This goes along with your fallacy that the church is your pope, cardinals, bishops and priests...
The CHURCH is the congregation...The called out assembly...
Jesus is the WORD...And Jesus gave us the 'word' that we would hear it, get saved and become members of His church...
The church started as a result of the spoken word as well as the written word of OT prophecies...The spoken portion of the word became the written word so the apostles and disciples could pass on accurately that which they were taught...
There was no such thing as the 'church' being a wayword institution until your religion could straighten it out with it's own version of scripture...
***The statement was “God brings about all human decisions, even sinful ones”
The scriptures posted as part of the proof were:
“Then of course there is John 19:10-11, where Jesus says to Pilot, “Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee? Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.”
Act 4:27-28 “For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.”
Specifically, Pilot was an active participant in the killing of Jesus according to the determinate plan of God.***
My point is that Pilate refused to make a decision and therefore defaulted to the Jewish authorities. Pilate did not condemn, as Luke indicates.
***Whether he condemned Jesus for a crime is beside the point; he knowingly condemned an innocent man to death by turning him over to his Roman troops to be crucified as demanded by the Jewish mob. All according to god’s plan.***
Which god? I normally capitalize the Christian God. Are you referring to another god such as the Reformed one?
***I was not aware of Marxian heresy. Thank you.
King fell into error early on, seeing Christianity as the outcome of Greek philosophical thought. Talking to other so called Christian sects, we can see that they embrace the same error, and anytime you see any of their adherents denouncing the apostle Paul, you will inevitably find that they indeed preach “another Jesus.”***
Fascinating. You wouldn’t happen to have a site that you could point me to?
***From his homepage, Dave is a believer in Swedenborg, a scientist who improved upon Christian theology.***
I love these improvements. Christ is not enough; God is not enough. Is there a substantive difference between Swedenborg and Mary Baker Eddy?
*** From what I can understand of it, there is no plan of salvation, thus Jesus did not die for us.***
So it’s Jesus and the Raiders of the Lost Ark?
***Instead, we are assured, by Swedenborg, not the bible, or Jesus’ own words, that all good people, like dogs, go to heaven.***
I wonder how the description of ‘good’ is arrived at.
***and through the windows of the limo, whilst gorging on celestial caviar and champagne,
Is that what they’re talking about here?:
Q. 27.What dost thou mean by the providence of God?
A.The almighty and everywhere present power of God; (a)whereby, as it were by his hand, he upholds and governs (b)heaven, earth, and all creatures; so that herbs and grass, rain and drought, (c)fruitful and barren years, meat and drink, health and sickness, (d)riches and poverty, (e) yea, and all things come, not by chance, but be his fatherly hand. (f)
Q. 28. What advantage is it to us to know that God has created, and by his providence does still uphold all things?
A.That we may be patient in adversity; (a)thankful in prosperity; (b)and that in all things, which may hereafter befall us, we place our firm trust in our faithful God and Father, (c) that nothing shall separate us from his love; (d) since all creatures are so in his hand, that without his will they cannot so much as move. (e)
Pretty grim world, where it all just kind of happens.***
The Reformed world is endlessly fascinating with its theology. There is an elect who are leapt upon by the leopardlike Reformed Holy Spirit who then hijacks their souls and, upon experiencing a Stockholm Syndrome, they are whisked away in the celestial limousine to Paradise, whilst the rest of the world, unknowing, trudge in blind misery to hell everlasting and, even though nobody deserves heaven, all deserve hell, even though the selection through the heavenly bingo ball is undeserved, the elect here know, although they don’t really unless they do.
Clear?
***DaveMSmith holds to Sweedenborgianism. See post 162 and post 140 in this thread.***
His privilege. I wonder what the effect will be on Judgement day.
***The Bible is the product of the Church; the Church is not the product of the Bible; the Church is the product of Christ. Hardly a secular book, unless your understanding of secular approaches your apparent understanding of Christ.
Craaaaazy, man...The bible you are referring is your religion’s Catholic verion put together hundreds of years after the scriptures were in circulation saving people left and right...***
Where are your Gospel of Judas and your Epistle of Barnabas? Scripture was chosen by the institution of Christ. Where are your Acts of Peter and Paul? There are dozens of writings that were circulating.
How do Scriptures save people? They don’t. Your Church of Iscool (population 1) has some work to do.
***The Bible is the product of the Church
This goes along with your fallacy that the church is your pope, cardinals, bishops and priests...***
Prove it wrong.
***Jesus is the WORD...And Jesus gave us the ‘word’ that we would hear it, get saved and become members of His church...
The church started as a result of the spoken word as well as the written word of OT prophecies...The spoken portion of the word became the written word so the apostles and disciples could pass on accurately that which they were taught...
There was no such thing as the ‘church’ being a wayword institution until your religion could straighten it out with it’s own version of scripture...***
For once you have it sort of right. The Church was the Institution that Jesus created and the Holy Spirit commissioned at Pentecost. It took over 300 years to create the New Testament and ensure that this was the literature of the Church.
If you think that the NT was God’s dictated word, you should read the first verses of Luke and Acts which specifically say that it is not.
I realize that this is a rather old post and the conversation may have past well beyond this statement. But I do feel bound to support the dear Rev Calvin whenever possible. This verse, as the entire book of Romans (indeed the entire Bible), is totally consistent with Calvin's view on election. Paul is not talking to a specific person when he states "you". Rather he is talking to the nation of the Gentile.
You are in error to suggest there are "unique character who served a specific purpose in salvation history". I once thought like that but I realized that I was in error. God shows no partiality.
The real issue is that man is TOTALLY depended upon the grace and mercy of God, be he saved or unsaved. All God has to do in any of our lives is to simply lift His divine restraining hand, and we will be off doing all sorts of mischief. God hardened Pharaoh's heart simply by lifting His hand from Pharaoh. God allowed Satan to enter Judas simply at the time He chose and under His circumstance. Likewise, we should never be so bold as to think we are special or unique since that is an indication of pride-one of the worst fault. God could, at any moment, decide to lift His restraining hand over us and we would fall into ruin.
BTW-Those who don't believe that God "elects" His people certainly have a hard time explaining the Old Testament of God's CHOSEN people.
***BTW-Those who don’t believe that God “elects” His people certainly have a hard time explaining the Old Testament of God’s CHOSEN people.***
The NT Jesus surpasses the OT covenant. The Jews are God’s Chosen People; the Gentiles are not. Are you retreating into the OT to explain Jesus, as some of the Reformed have done?
All men are fallen and none seeks the face of God unless and until God regenerates their hearts of stone.
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." -- John 1:12-13"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Could that be much clearer? Born again not because men desire it, but because God declared their salvation and carried it out by Christ on the cross.
Could Lazarus participate in his rebirth? No. God first must quicken the dead heart before it is capable of faith. That's what grace is. "Saved by grace."
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" -- Titus 3:5
Life is long and difficult and the verses you give are meant to guide and strengthen, to exhort to perseverance and charity, each presupposing God's predestining choice of His family. Men don't elect themselves. Grace is unmerited. Paul tells us if grace were earned by good works, salvation would be according to debt and not mercy.
You're missing a deeper truth here whose understanding is not a requirement for salvation. But it sure gives more glory to God and accurately renders his word -- "Not by works of righteousness which we have done..."
Amen. It sure would be a wonderful world if everyone understood the truth of your Machen tag.
Instead we're told the only thing Christ said of note was the Sermon on the Mount. Oh yeah, and when Christ says He doesn't pray for the whole word, He doesn't really mean it. He means just the opposite. Supposedly.
Amen.
"God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord." -- 1 Corin. 1:9
Biggest apostacy in Christianity today is that good works and being nice (liberal-idealist-peace corps save darfur) sort who downplays accepting as fact that Jesus is the son of God who died for our sins and that through him and him alone we are granted salvation is good enougn by itself.
That is the big lie today and it’s what many believe who voted for Obama and who the media erroneously calls Evangelicals.
Any "secret counsel" Calvin refers to is the Biblical understanding of the things that belong to God alone to know -- such as why He gives grace to some and withholds it from others. That's for God, not men, to know.
But by the birth and resurrection of Jesus Christ all men are without excuse to know the true God. His works testify of Him. And yet men still do not believe. And that is because they have not been born again by the Holy Spirit to understand the spiritual things of God.
"But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." -- John 10;26
Do you doubt that it's given some men to understand the things of God and not given to others? If new ears and new eyes are given to all men, and yet some don't believe, then that means some men's wills are stronger than God's will. Impossible.
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God." -- 1 Corin 2:6-12"Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent?
as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Do you know what the word of God is??? I'll give you a hint...It is NOT your church...And it is not your church tradition...Still don't get it???
The word of God is the scriptures...
Joh 5:39 Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Did Jesus say to search the Catholic church??? Did Jesus say to search the Catholic tradition??? No??? He must have made a mistake, eh???
Me This goes along with your fallacy that the church is your pope, cardinals, bishops and priests...
You Prove it wrong.
My pleasure...
Act 8:3 As for Saul, he made havoc of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.
Act 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
They were assembled with the called out assembly, the church...They were NOT the church...
Act 15:4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
You will notice here and most other places the apostles and elders are NOT the church
They were received of the church, AND the apostles and elders...It's not a buiding...It's not a priesthood...It's the called out assembly of believers...
Act 15:22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas: namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
With the whole church...
Act 20:17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
NOT the elders, the church...The elders OF the church...
Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
The apostles are told to feed the church which is the flock, NOT each other...
Rom 16:5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my well-beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.
What??? No cathedral??? The churches are in houses...
1Co 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
This one is so explanatory that you couldn't miss it with the Hubble telescope...
This is just a small sampling of the scriptures that prove you pope, cardinals, bishops and priests are NOT the church...
Where are your Gospel of Judas and your Epistle of Barnabas? Scripture was chosen by the institution of Christ. Where are your Acts of Peter and Paul? There are dozens of writings that were circulating.
When were these things written??? Who wrote them??? Does your church or anyone have the original manuscripts of these tales??? What language were they written in???
For once you have it sort of right.
When it comes to scripture, I don't think you're the guy to tell me or anyone who is right or not right...
It took over 300 years to create the New Testament and ensure that this was the literature of the Church.
Oh come now...You think Jesus had to wait 300 years for you guys to figure out which scriptures Jesus said he would preserve forever??? If Jesus didn't have it all wrapped up with the last writing of the last apostle, He ain't much of a God, is He???
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