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To: kosta50
I did attend an OCA church once, but it's membership was very small. I'm more comfortable right now occasionally attending a Byzantine Catholic church, which is in communion with Rome and who's divine litergy is in English. But it's still somewhat awkward with me being of western european ancestry and most of the congregation being of eastern european background.

If Orthodox Christians wanted to get some Catholic converts, I suppose the Orthodox Church could start their own "western rite" churches that followed the Roman rituals but were under the authority of Constantinople, if they wanted to.

I think the whole reason why the Orthodox church doesn't take a stance on how the bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ is because the schism occurred before the Catholics weighed in on the matter and tried to explain what happens physically. I think the Lutherans accept the same doctrine and have their own version (it was mentioned earlier on this thread -- the idea that the body and blood of Jesus is UNDER the bread and wine). As a Catholic I probably side more with the Orthodox on this one -- the question of HOW God makes the bread and wine become his body and blood while retaining its original appearance is something that cannot be fully explained by human minds and remains a mystery.

As you can see from my thread above, I complained on these threads how some Protestants seem to lump the entire Christian community as accepting their doctrines. For example they constantly claim the veneration of Mary is a "Catholic thing" and the real presence of Jesus at communion is a "Catholic thing", both supposedly rejected by "non-Catholics", when in fact this and many other doctrine are accepted by both Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches, and in fact the only ones rejecting it are the bulk of protestant churches (and not even all of them, since Lutherans and Anglicians tend to support the traditional POV). As an Orthodox Christian would you agree on that point?

Finally regarding the Agape feast, I think the reason for that was the early communion ceremonies were simply extended versions of Passover dinners, since the early Christians came from a Jewish background. Eventually they decided to make the passover meal a separate thing from the communion event, and soon did away with the passover meal all together.

361 posted on 12/28/2008 1:23:17 AM PST by BillyBoy (Impeach Obama? Yes We Can!)
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To: BillyBoy
But it's still somewhat awkward with me being of western European ancestry and most of the congregation being of eastern European background
431 posted on 12/28/2008 12:51:06 PM PST by kosta50
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To: BillyBoy
If Orthodox Christians wanted to get some Catholic converts, I suppose the Orthodox Church could start their own "western rite" churches that followed the Roman rituals but were under the authority of Constantinople, if they wanted to
432 posted on 12/28/2008 12:52:58 PM PST by kosta50
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To: BillyBoy
I think the whole reason why the Orthodox church doesn't take a stance on how the bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ is because the schism occurred before the Catholics weighed in on the matter and tried to explain what happens physically

No, the Latin Church did not "discover" yet "how" the bread changes. That required adoption of the pagan Aristotelian philosophy first and the development of the scholastic mindset, which came way after the schism. The Orthodox Church teaches what the eastern Liturgy has proclaimed for the last 1,700 years at least, namely that the Holy Spirit changes the Gifts mysteriously and that's where our "understanding" ends.


434 posted on 12/28/2008 12:55:48 PM PST by kosta50
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To: BillyBoy
in fact the only ones rejecting [veneration of Mary] are the bulk of protestant churches (and not even all of them, since Lutherans and Anglicians tend to support the traditional POV). As an Orthodox Christian would you agree on that point?

You are right. The rejection comes from the Baptists and Presbyterians, and various flavors of Lutherans and Anglicans. You do have essentially "catholic-like" groups embedded in Anglican and Lutheran communities but there are Lutherans and Anglicans where women are "bishops" and "priests," so even if they do venerate Mary what good is that?


435 posted on 12/28/2008 12:58:45 PM PST by kosta50
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To: BillyBoy
Finally regarding the Agape feast, I think the reason for that was the early communion ceremonies were simply extended versions of Passover dinners, since the early Christians came from a Jewish background

Sure, the Passover (Seder) meal is one of those "types" prefiguring Christ in the Old Testament. The Orthodox Church does not read the OT literally but in terms of types that prefigure or announce Christ. Obviously things that don't announce Christ are not considered as "types," so large amounts of the OT are actually ignored in practice, unless someone can "figure out" how smashing babies against rocks "prefigures" Christ!

The Christians simply combined the Mystical (Last) Supper with the Passover meal. So, the elements of what later became the sacrament of the communion was part of the agape meal or feast. There is no apparent sacrament in the way Paul describes it in 1 Cor 11.


436 posted on 12/28/2008 1:00:34 PM PST by kosta50
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To: BillyBoy
Eventually they decided to make the passover meal a separate thing from the communion event, and soon did away with the passover meal all together

Roman records from the turn of the century (about 67 years after Christ died) indicate that Christians gathered in the morning for what appears to be eucharistic prayers and worship and then in the afternoon again for the agape meal.  When this started is unknown. Certainly when Paul wrote to the Corinthians (about 50-52 AD) the two were still part of the one and the same event, and the breaking of the bread does not seem to be part of any liturgical sacrament, but the occasion seems to be marred by people getting drunk and food-binging, getting sick and passing out.


437 posted on 12/28/2008 1:01:27 PM PST by kosta50
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To: BillyBoy
I think the whole reason why the Orthodox church doesn't take a stance on how the bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ is because the schism occurred before the Catholics weighed in on the matter and tried to explain what happens physically.

I think it's interesting and problematic to speak of transubstantiation being about "what happens physically." I wouldn't describe the change as a physical change (except in some of the more spectacular miracles). Nothing changes physically.

At least as I use the word, that would be about what measurable and analyzable changes happen to the "elements". But as I understand the doctrine it is pretty much a declaration that nothing perceptible to sense, even to senses augmented and refined by instrumentation, happens.

So then the question is, "What is changed?" And the answer is "The what-it-is is changed," as distinct from what-it-looks-like or what-it-is-made of or things of that kind.

And I don't think that reduces the sheer mystery of the thing. It just is an effort to say precisely something about the mystery, to assert the mystery less vaguely.

438 posted on 12/28/2008 1:11:21 PM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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