Posted on 12/25/2008 9:13:44 PM PST by restornu
In Joseph Smith's day some of the most prominent Americans were disgusted with the creeds of Christendom. Thomas Jefferson said:
I [Jefferson] am a real Christian, that is to say a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus, very different from the preachers . . of the gospel, while they draw all their characteristic dogmas from what its author never said or did.
They have compounded from the heathen mysteries a system beyond the comprehension of man of which Jesus, were he to return on earth, would not recognize one feature. . . . It is the speculations of crazy theologians which have made a Babel out of religion (Saul K. Padover, Thomas Jefferson on Democracy, 1939, pp. 122-123).
Writing to S. Hales in 1818, Jefferson wrote: "The truth is that Calvinism has introduced into the Christian religion more new absurdities than its leaders had purged it of old ones" (Ibid., p. 219).
On Jefferson's monument in Washington, D.C., is inscribed: "I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." If his complete quotation were on the monument it would bring out the fact that Jefferson was speaking against the dergy of his day (Ibid., p. 119).
Benjamin Franklin, replying to a letter from Ezra Styles, president of Yale, said shortly before his death:
As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left it to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes (Carl Van Doren, Benjamin Franklin, 1941, p. 777).
The first great work expressing the deistic feeling in America was Thomas Paine's Age of Reason, considered to have generated the greatest stir of any book of its day. It made clear that Paine was not an atheist as some claimed, but a deist because of the tyranny and bigotry he found in the existing churches (Thomas Paine, Age of Reason, 1793, p. 287).
Speaking of the period in America between 1670 and 1830, renowned theologian Paul Tillich has said, "First among the educated classes, then increasingly in the mass of industrial workers, religion lost its 'immediacy,' and it ceased to offer an unquestioned sense of direction and relevance to human living" (Roland N. Stromberg, Religious Liberalism, 1954, p. 1).
Carlyle has said of the Colonial Period: "An age fallen languid and destitute of faith and terrified of skepticism" (Ibid., p. ix).
Of this time Carl L. Becker has said, "What we have to realize is that in those years God was on trial" (Ibid., p. 1).
On another occasion, Thomas Jefferson said:
The impious presumption of legislators and rulers, civil as well as ecclesiastical, who being themselves but fallible and uninspired men have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as such endeavoring to impose them on others, have established and maintained false religions over the greatest part of the earth (Peter H. Odegard, Religion and Politics, 1960, p. 110).
It is also true that in Colonial America only about 5 percent of the population belonged to any church and that those who did come to America for religious reasons did not come here initially to seek freedom of religion except for themselves. This is certainly an indictment against religion in Joseph Smith's day.
Peter Odegard also maintains this position:
Nowhere in the old world at the beginning of American colonization was there anything like religious toleration. . . . It is sad but not surprising to recall that even the religious dissenters who found refuge in America were, with notable exceptions, no more disposed toward toleration than the oppressors of the old world Obid., p. 9).
Historian William Warren Sweet says, "The rise of an intense anticlericalism was another cause of opposition to the churches." Further he relates: "The United States began as a free and independent nation with organized religion at a low ebb" (William Warren Sweet, Religion in the Development of American Culture, 1952, p. 92.).
"The truth is that Calvinism has introduced into the Christian religion more new absurdities than its leaders had purged it of old ones."
Wow! How was Jefferson able to read Free Republic way back then? ;)
Exactly right. Government may allow abortion, but we do not need to overthrow it. A government that COMMANDS abortion has commanded disobedience to God and ought to be altered or abolished. BTW, the abortion laws can be changed through legitimate means and ought to be done so. (Lest anyone think I am in any way pro-abortion, which I am Not.)
I would find myself in good company with Jefferson and Franklin. Intelligent men and women can barely tolerate the smallness of those who anoint themselves as heralds of the Messiah. The one thing that is most striking that much of modern organized religion does not grasp is that God does the calling and not once in the bible did he call men who behaved as fools. All were flawed but none were ignorant. I do not need another man who smells far too sweetly to be polite and speaks far too measured though often not so erudite to assess the worthiness of my soul. That said fictional religious additions such as the book of Mormon make the the phoniness of many clergy appear tame.
Wow. I never knew that.
“Now the Spirit explicitly says that in the last times some will turn away from the faith by paying attention to deceitful spirits and demonic instructions.”
I Timothy 4:1
let's put this in context
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
It seems you AMPU have little faith in what Jesus council
John 14:
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
• • •
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
So, you insulted me and said I was not being polite, and you do not have the ability nor inclination to back up your insult with facts.
Got it.
At least I know what I’m dealing with.
(BTW—I’m not arguing with ANYONE about their beliefs. You don’t even know mine. You have inserted yourself in a conversation you have no place in, you have stuck your foot in your own mouth, and now you’re complaining that you don’t like the taste. I bid you good day and Happy New Year.)
Isn’t it time you stopped pinging me and posting to me?
I don’t trust wiki in general but in this case I’ve read the same thing elsewhere (and attended Sunstone 2002).
lets not make this personal
I guess the question begs then, do you believe the Bible as the infallible word of God & correct as translated?
no need to respond unless you feel a call.....as your responses have been chasing shadows thus far
Your comments were immature and argumentative, and I said as much.
How do we know WHICH comments are factual and which aren't? Arguing religious beliefs, concepts, creeds and rites is NOT dealing in facts.
It's a FACT that everyone believes his or her religion is the ONLY religion.
It's a FACT that only Faith allows us to believe in something we can't see, which means none of us will know the FACTS until we die.
It's a FACT that people get insulted when they think their idea is the best and someone else comes along to say it isn't.
It's a FACT that you demand people be accountable to you for what they believe. (As if it would matter to you.)
And it's a FACT that I've enjoyed your presence today.
So, now it’s “immature and argumentative”? Pray tell, show me the errors of my ways, and point out SPECIFICALLY where and how my comments were (1) immature, and (2) argumentative.
I await enlightenment.
You said it quite well, I think.
Unbelievable.
Ya know...? For someone who doesn’t like this thread, doesn’t want to be pinged, doesn’t want to be posted to, and demands an explanation for everything everyone says, you’re sure spending a lot of time here.
When you declare or imply in your opinion is it not personal any longer it is part of the converstaion.
I guess the question begs then, do you believe the Bible as the infallible word of God & correct as translated?
I have answered that already when I state that I use the Bible as a benchmark!
How bias of you!:)
Did you watch it?
-all I can say is wow - you are difficult to speak with, and when you do, you speak in circles, making it very difficult to follow your logic
You wrote:
“LDS only have an Article of Faith no creeds.”
Creeds are composed of article of Faith. Did you even know that?
Here, look:
Mormon article of faith:
“We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.”
What Christians believe:
“We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.”
Notice the similarity? So are you sure that Mormons have no creed?
LDS says:
“We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.”
What Christians believe:
“We confess (I confess) one baptism for the remission of sins.”
LDS:
“We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.”
What Christians believe:
[Christ] “Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man; was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures.”
Notice how Smith’s credo statements copy the Christian statements in some ways?
Go through those Mormon articles of faith and you’ll see it IS A CREED in all but name.
Creed is from ‘credo” which means “I Believe”. And what does every Mormon article start off with? “We Believe”
Mormons have a creed - and you have no idea of what you’re taling about.
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