In Joseph Smith's day prominent Americans were disgusted with the creeds of Christendom. (excerpt)

[restornu]

In Joseph Smith's day some of the most prominent Americans were disgusted with the creeds of Christendom. Thomas Jefferson said:

I [Jefferson] am a real Christian, that is to say a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus, very different from the preachers . . of the gospel, while they draw all their characteristic dogmas from what its author never said or did.

They have compounded from the heathen mysteries a system beyond the comprehension of man of which Jesus, were he to return on earth, would not recognize one feature. . . . It is the speculations of crazy theologians which have made a Babel out of religion (Saul K. Padover, Thomas Jefferson on Democracy, 1939, pp. 122-123).

Writing to S. Hales in 1818, Jefferson wrote: "The truth is that Calvinism has introduced into the Christian religion more new absurdities than its leaders had purged it of old ones" (Ibid., p. 219).

On Jefferson's monument in Washington, D.C., is inscribed: "I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." If his complete quotation were on the monument it would bring out the fact that Jefferson was speaking against the dergy of his day (Ibid., p. 119).

Benjamin Franklin, replying to a letter from Ezra Styles, president of Yale, said shortly before his death:

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left it to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes (Carl Van Doren, Benjamin Franklin, 1941, p. 777).

The first great work expressing the deistic feeling in America was Thomas Paine's Age of Reason, considered to have generated the greatest stir of any book of its day. It made clear that Paine was not an atheist as some claimed, but a deist because of the tyranny and bigotry he found in the existing churches (Thomas Paine, Age of Reason, 1793, p. 287).

Speaking of the period in America between 1670 and 1830, renowned theologian Paul Tillich has said, "First among the educated classes, then increasingly in the mass of industrial workers, religion lost its 'immediacy,' and it ceased to offer an unquestioned sense of direction and relevance to human living" (Roland N. Stromberg, Religious Liberalism, 1954, p. 1).

Carlyle has said of the Colonial Period: "An age fallen languid and destitute of faith and terrified of skepticism" (Ibid., p. ix).

Of this time Carl L. Becker has said, "What we have to realize is that in those years God was on trial" (Ibid., p. 1).

On another occasion, Thomas Jefferson said:

The impious presumption of legislators and rulers, civil as well as ecclesiastical, who being themselves but fallible and uninspired men have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as such endeavoring to impose them on others, have established and maintained false religions over the greatest part of the earth (Peter H. Odegard, Religion and Politics, 1960, p. 110).

It is also true that in Colonial America only about 5 percent of the population belonged to any church and that those who did come to America for religious reasons did not come here initially to seek freedom of religion except for themselves. This is certainly an indictment against religion in Joseph Smith's day.

Peter Odegard also maintains this position:

Nowhere in the old world at the beginning of American colonization was there anything like religious toleration. . . . It is sad but not surprising to recall that even the religious dissenters who found refuge in America were, with notable exceptions, no more disposed toward toleration than the oppressors of the old world Obid., p. 9).

Historian William Warren Sweet says, "The rise of an intense anticlericalism was another cause of opposition to the churches." Further he relates: "The United States began as a free and independent nation with organized religion at a low ebb" (William Warren Sweet, Religion in the Development of American Culture, 1952, p. 92.).

[Elsie]

Given that Jefferson and Franklin were not Christians, your article starts on a shaky foundation.

Bah!

We don't worry; for our entire Organization® is on shaky ground!

--MormonDude(We, at least, have the RESTORED Gospel®!)

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Stormy,
I posted ITim4:1. You posted the next 2 verses as well.
Not sure why, but hey, it’s a free nation (at least for
a while)...

In any case, the first two verses certainly describe
mormonism.

best,
ampu

[restornu]

They really don’t care about the Presbyterian religion this whole things was a ploy for us to take a bite of the Garden of Eden apple.

Elsie and company love to tempt others with those apples!

for many centruries the mainstream was the care takers here on earth of the Word and now that the Lord has restored his Church they don’t want to relesae their imagine positions.

[Elsie]

At least be polite Christ-like about your request.

(We MUST be polite to these Mormon's or their FEATHERS get ruffled...)

---

 

Matthew 15:16
   "Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them.

Matthew 23

 

 1.  Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples:
 2.  "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
 3.  So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
 4.  They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
 5.  "Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries  wide and the tassels on their garments long;
 6.  they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues;
 7.  they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them `Rabbi.'
 8.  "But you are not to be called `Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers.
 9.  And do not call anyone on earth `father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.
 10.  Nor are you to be called `teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ.
 11.  The greatest among you will be your servant.
 12.  For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
 13.  "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. 
 14.  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. 
 15.   "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are. 
 16.  "Woe to you, blind guides! You say, `If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.'
 17.  You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred?
 18.  You also say, `If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.'
 19.  You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred?
 20.  Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it.
 21.  And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it.
 22.  And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.
 23.  "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
 24.  You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
 25.  "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.
 26.  Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
 27.  "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites!  You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean.
 28.  In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
 29.  "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous.
 30.  And you say, `If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'
 31.  So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets.
 32.  Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!
 33.  "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
 34.  Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.
 35.  And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
 36.  I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
 37.  "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
 38.  Look, your house is left to you desolate.
 39.  For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, `Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.' "

 

Mark 7:26-27
 26.  The woman was a Greek, born in Syrian Phoenicia. She begged Jesus to drive the demon out of her daughter.
 27.  "First let the children eat all they want," he told her, "for it is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."

 

Galatians 5:12
   As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

 

 

[aMorePerfectUnion]

>> let’s put this in context

>>2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

That is the context of mormonism...

>> It seems you AMPU have little faith in what Jesus council

>>John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Sorry Resty, that verse is written to Christians!

[Elsie]

But the day after celebrating the Birth of Jesus seems like a poor time to be contentious.

Choose Ye This Day...

Jude 1: 3
Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

---

I choose ANY day to speak up for REAL 'faith'; not that fake LDS babble!

[Monkey Face]

Elsie! What’s up with THAT? I have no feathers, since I have no wings!

I haven’t seen you in a while, and I truly hope you had a Blessed Christmas, and that the Spirit was (IS!) with you and your family!

I visited my son in Arkansas, last week, and it really was a good experience! I hope you and yours are well!

[Elsie]

...and none of us are required to do that.

You sound BYU trained. Are you??

---

 

 TRAINED to do this!   00:02:02

 

---

 

Professor Robert Millet        teaching at the Mission Prep Club in 2004  http://newsnet.byu.edu/video/18773/  <-- Complete and uneditted

---

 

 

Timeline...    Subject...

 

0:59            "Anti-Mormons..."

1:16            "ATTACK the faith you have..."

2:02           "We really aren't obligated to answer everyone's questions..."

3:57           "You already know MORE about God and Christ and the plan of salvation than any who would ATTACK you."

[Godzilla]

That is not what the real 1 Tim 4:1 says.

Old KJV, LOL this is 'closer' real passage than the KJV.

4:1 ¶ to de pneuma rhtwv legei oti en usteroiv kairoiv aposthsontai tinev thv pistewv prosecontev pneumasin planoiv kai didaskaliaiv daimoniwn
2 en upokrisei qeudologwn kekauthriasmenwn thn idian suneidhsin
3 kwluontwn gamein apecesyai brwmatwn a o yeov ektisen eiv metalhqin meta eucaristiav toiv pistoiv kai epegnwkosin thn alhyeian

. . commanding to abstain from meats . .

A doctrine of demons?
The Word of Wisdom states that meat should not be eaten, except "in times of winter, or of cold, or famine"

Have you followed your word of wisdom today?

[Monkey Face]

Since I believe that Jesus Christ is my Savior, your comment about Mormons not being Christian seems a little confusing. Are you a Mormon? Have you spent much time with Mormons? What does the phrase, “The Chruch of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” mean to you? I focus on “The Church of Jesus Christ.” If that doesn’t make me a Christian, I’d like to know what does...

[Elsie]

(Humpty Dumpty was pushed.)

Interesting HOME page you have there...

---

 

 

 

'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,' it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.'

'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'

Alice was too much puzzled to say anything; so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. 'They've a temper, some of them - particularly verbs: they're the proudest - adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs - however, I can manage the whole lot of them! Impenetrability! That's what I say!'

[HereInTheHeartland]

“Scripture and Tradition make it plain that the Christian cannot be a revolutionary”

So the American Revolution and thus our nation was/is illegitimate?

[Elsie]

The capacity for or the practice of recognizing and respecting the beliefs or practices of others

 

HA Ha ha...

 

 

 

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/19#19   17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!   18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.   19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”   20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother, “I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.”

 

 

[Elsie]

The topic of the thread is prominent Americans were disgusted with the creeds of the stuff shirts in Christendom!:)

Guess what!!

'Prominent Americans' re STILL disgusted with the creeds of the LDS Organization®!!

(Remember ol' MITT?

He lost!!)

[Stourme]

The Word of Wisdom states that meat should not be eaten, except "in times of winter, or of cold, or famine"

Have you followed your word of wisdom today?

Yup...it's extremely cold outside, so I had a left over turkey sandwich :)

[Elsie]

6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, moneychangers in the temple, Young Men/Women leaders, Relief Society Presidents, Stake Mission Presidents, Young Single Adults Group Leaders, Elders Quorum Presidents, First Counselor to the President and so forth.  We also believe that the primitive name for the church was "Corporation of the President."

7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, faith-healing, interpretation of tongues, tearing out of tongues when you divulge endowment secrets, and so forth.

 

 

THESE little phrases can cover a LOT of stuff!

 

Real precise language; ain't it!!

[Monkey Face]

Golly, Elsie! Thanks for the compliment!

No, I’m not “BYU trained.” I spent almost 30 years actively searching for a religion to fit my beliefs. The LDS Church was the only religious entity that I felt comfortable with because it had answers to my questions.

And I had been asking questions for years, in every “church” I joined, hoping that “this is the one!” Some didn’t babtize by immersion, as Jesus was; some didn’t baptize at all; some didn’t believe in respect for the Holy Ghost; some didn’t believe anyone could be inspired by the Holy Ghost, much less receive personal revelation.

To make a long story short, like most of us, I chose the religion that made me the most comfortable.

And you?

[Elsie]

“Catholics Need Not Apply”

Resty; why do you try to turn your OWN thread into a C vs P fight??

[Elsie]

... or is that the only argument you can make in response to these facts?

NO!!

[Elsie]

 

 

 

 

To: prayforpeaceofJerusalem

Whe are you to assume you can correct anyone or I to correct any one?

You have your understanding, I have my understanding, but I don’t preach but will answer when and asked, and I don’t remember asking you any thing!

3,534 posted on Thursday, April 17, 2008 2:59:11 PM by restornu (They allow this little quibble over scripture to blind them!)

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