Posted on 12/14/2008 8:37:32 AM PST by tpanther
How about a proton? It is quite a bit more "complex" than its various component quantum particles, but I assume you would agree that it arises by natural processes without the need for supernatural involvement.
How about a hydrogen atom? It is quite a bit more "complex" than its various component sub-atomic particles, but I assume you would agree that it arises by natural processes without the need for supernatural involvement.
How about a uranium atom? It is quite a bit more "complex" than something as "simple" as a hydrogen atom, but I assume you would agree that it arises by natural processes without the need for supernatural involvement.
Now, if you do in fact agree that the above can arise by natural processes, at what point do you impose a cut-off, beyond which "natural" complexity is impossible?
DANG!!!
Why didn't I think of that?
Of course!!
It's ALL so clear now!
It has been...
HMmmm...
I'll have ONE of those; two of these and a handful of the other, please.
Ain’t GOD wonderful!
I don't understand your point.
And you know this how?
How do you know that there was no intelligence behind the creation of any system that produces order?
I thought science did not deal with the supernatural? How can it address causes?
How do you know that those things weren’t created with those properties that make them behave reliably as they do?
You probably meant something like this.
I don't claim to know, and neither does science. Science tries to figure out what rules govern the natural world, not who the "author" of those rules might be.
Evolution through the mechanism of natural selection *is* organic life behaving according to a set of natural laws. There is nothing in the theory that prevents you from believing that those natural laws were "written" by a creator. Frankly, I think you are doing the creator a disservice to shut your eyes and plug your ears to the elegant, beautiful process that is evolution.
“If you have a definition that allows assigning a quantity to information in biological systems, I’d like to see it, along with an example.”
Coded information is found within dna. The fact that it is organized for specific instructions denotes intelligence. It cannot happen randomly...that would be quite impossible.
“As I stated, those structures are formed through the process of natural selection.”
Sorry, FRiend...that is simply not possible without an intelligent agent.
Since you are the one making a bald statement of impossibility, what is the maximum level of complexity that can arise without a guiding intelligence?
Large atoms contain quite a bit of "information," yet I doubt that you dispute they can and do arise without a guiding intelligence. So, at what point do you draw the line between acceptable complexity, and complexity that must have come from guiding intelligence?
IF he designed it that way and He says He didn't.
Misinterpreting variation within species, as species to species evolution does more than a disservice to the Creator if one attributes to *natural* causes something that never happened.
For all the evos talk about an affront to the Creator by not accepting evolution, what about the affront to the Creator by calling Him a liar when they say that He didn't create things the way He said He did?
“Since you are the one making a bald statement of impossibility, what is the maximum level of complexity that can arise without a guiding intelligence?”
Large atoms contain quite a bit of “information,” yet I doubt that you dispute they can and do arise without a guiding intelligence. So, at what point do you draw the line between acceptable complexity, and complexity that must have come from guiding intelligence?”
Everything in existence was created by God. Period. There was nothing, then in an instant (big bang) there was everything. God has made His creation plain to see to everyone. Information encoded within our cells and complexity in the Cosmos are just a few examples of God’s creation.
I don’t understand how that is responsive to what I wrote.
You’re assuming the conclusion. You’re assuming that ANY complexity can arise without intelligent direction or impetus.
There’s bazillions of examples of complexity that exist in this world that are known to have intelligence behind them. It’s set plenty of precedent.
The only way to think that complexity can arise without any guiding intelligence is to ASSume it. There is simply no precedent for it.
The best scientists and science can do is state that they don’t know if any complexity can arise without intelligence.
At least you are honest about the fact that your belief is not based on science, but on your version of your particular faith.
“Since you are the one making a bald statement of impossibility, what is the maximum level of complexity that can arise without a guiding intelligence?”
Since everything in existence was created by God (guiding intelligence), the answer to your question is zero. Any level of complexity at all (or even anything ‘non-complex’) in anything and everything was created by God.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.