The Messianic Jew & Charismatic Dispensationalism

The Messianic Literary Corner ^ | 11/30/2008 | Marshall Beeber

[mbeeber]

	The Messianic Jew & Charismatic Dispensationalism by Marshall Beeber In the nineteenth century a theological revolution called "Dispensationalism" rightly outlined the "Biblical Historical Perspective", thereby giving mankind a clearer picture of how God has provided and continues to provide salvation to man throughout history.  By acknowledgement of this perspective, an accord between Hebrew Old Covenant and New Covenant prophecy was forged, sweeping away many of the contradictions that divided Christian and Orthodox Jewish prophetic viewpoints.  Dispensationalists became God's instrument of change in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries,  leading the way in promoting the support of the establishment of the state of Israel and bringing to light the prophetic signposts for the "End of this Age". But when Dispensationalists took a theological stand against the excesses they found in contemporary "Charismatic" Christianity, they "Quenched the Holy Spirit" by denying the validity of most Charismatic Christian spiritual experiences.  The result of this schism today is an eschatology shared by both Fundamentalist and Charismatic Protestant Denominations, but a sharp disagreement on the exercise of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. The Dispensationalists claim they are protecting the kingdom of God from spiritual frauds and false theologies, while the Charismatics believe they have tapped into the "true baptism" of spiritual experience.  Both sides have valid arguments as well as excesses.  The Dispensationalists often times exude an overly dry manner in their presentation of scripture and worship, while the Charismatics often exude a "heart first" approach, which lends themselves susceptible to erroneous doctrine presented in an exuberant fashion. Today most Messianic Jewish fellowships and congregations are disciples of one of the two movements mentioned.  As prophetic events move us closer to Messiah Yeshua's (Christ Jesus) return, believers are reminded of the Hebrew prophet Joel's promise of "prophecy, dreams and visions" among the elect of Israel before the great and terrible "Day of the Lord".1  Dispensationalists believe these occurrences were only present in the times immediately following the "Day of Pentecost" and will be present during the times just preceding "Judgment Day", where Charismatics believe these expressions of the Spirit were present from the Day of Pentecost continuously to the present day.2 Nevertheless, as the great "Day of Judgment" approaches, both Fundamentalist and Charismatic Christians should have more to agree upon than disagree.  When Dispensationalists accept they are living in the days just preceding the "Second Coming of Christ", they must also accept the very teachings they originally postulated. So as the "Day of the Lord" draws near, even Dispensationalists must accept those movements of the Spirit prophesied by Joel and recited by Peter on the Day of Pentecost. I believe Messianic Jews (Hebrew Christians) and Gentile Christians from Fundamentalist, Charismatic and Reformed backgrounds will soon come to an understanding that events much greater than themselves will soon shape their understanding of the Lord's will in regards to commonly held beliefs and attitudes.  We will all witness the same wonderful signs, tribulations and persecutions, whereby our love for the Lord Yeshua and one another will be tried and refined.  It is then that Jewish and Gentile believers in Christ will finally be united in purpose and strength as we all await the "Coming of the Lord". 1. Joel 2:28-29 2. Acts 2:16-18 (Additional studies and commentaries are requested. Feel free to email MLC your materials for posting)

[topcat54]

Oh, dear, next you’ll be saying they don’t need to have their male children circumcised.

Let me ask you, Marshall, is a person who “keeps kosher” more religiously holy than one who does not? IOW, does it matter to God whether or not one observes food laws?

[topcat54]

FWIW all eschatological theological positions are "problematic".

Is this your way of conceding that no one here has called dispensationalists "evil"?

[Uri’el-2012]

is a person who “keeps kosher” more religiously holy than one who does not? IOW, does it matter to God whether or not one observes food laws?

If you were familiar with either the Bible or Judaism.
you would know that "kosher" is Rabbinical and not scriptural.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai

[Lee N. Field]

“problematic” is the best possible spin I can put on it.

[topcat54]

I agree completely. But neither did they assign to His words only the destruction of the Temple, but also His literal, eschatological Second Coming.

I can agree with that. There certainly is no evidence that they expected the Second Coming to be AD70 part II.

The issue in my book is not over whether Matt 24, etc covers both AD70 and the Second Coming. I think they do. The issue is whether the language of Matt. 24 requires a replication of AD70 sometime in the future. Does it require the temple to be rebuilt in order to be destroyed again? Does it require the future literal persecution of believers at the hands of unbelieving Jews?

[Buggman]

Well, you may consider that Hagee was merely revising terms, e.g., messiah doesn’t mean messiah, but it seems that his errant theology goes much deeper than that.

"Messiah" means "Anointed," and to a 1st Century Jewish audience primarily referred to the Anointed King (though the Essenes also believed in an Anointed Priest, whose role Yeshua also fulfills)--even preterists admit that He went to Jerusalem to be the Sacrifice, not to sit on a throne, which was Hagee's whole point. Anyone with any clue at all about Hagee knows that he believes Jesus is the Messiah. Anyone who reads his book without a bone to pick knows that he is dealing with an issue of 1st Century Jewish expectation vs. what Yeshua came to offer in His First Coming, not repudiating his own Christianity. His main error, which he attempted to rectify in his second edition, was in not expressing himself as clearly as he should.

Whatever your theological issues with Hagee are, I would think that the moral issue of CARM slandering him would outweigh it.

TC, the real problem here is that you don't seem to actually read Dispensationalist authors and come to an opinion of them from their own words--you read their critics, assume that anything bad said about a Dispensationalist must be true, and start promoting it.

As xzins succinctly put it, we think preterists are in error (in my case, partially in error); you think Dispensationalists are evil, and will therefore uncritically accept any slam on any Dispy that you can find.

If you affirm an essentially pessimistic eschatology about the near future (the "great tribulation" is just around the corner), it stands to reason that your efforts for the gospel will track that pessimism.

I am pessimistic . . . about human nature. I am, on the other hand, very optimistic about the Lord and His intervention in human history. I am further very excited to live in such times as these, when the Great Commission is nearing completion at the same time that Israel is back in the Land (as Isa. 11:10ff predicted), when the political alliances are lining up just as Ezekiel 38-39 predicted, when the rebuilding of the Temple is imminent, and when the increasing tempo of chaos betrays the Adversary's desperation. I am continually in awe that despite all of Israel's failings, God has kept and is keeping every single one of His promises to the Jewish people. I delight in having a role in restoring to both my adopted people and my spiritual brethren what was lost for nineteen centuries. I joy at seeing the powerlessness of the Adversary in the face of the Name of Yeshua.

This is what you don't get, TC--understanding the signs of the times that we live in doesn't demoralize us. It energizes us. We've been on a long, hard road, and while there are one or more dangerous passes yet to cross, we can actually see our goal in sight. We're not sitting in the road; we're surging forward.

Before I became Messianic, I was a member of the Christian Missionary Alliance, which is premillennial to the core. The CMA was founded with a vision to complete the Great Commission, and was driven by the optimism of knowing that God would bring it to pass. I grew up supporting and hearing back from missionaries that our congregation supported in a dozen countries at any one time.

Even today, though God has given me a slightly different focus (one Nation instead of many), I keep up with several missionary couples through the CMA. Congregation Beth HaMashiach helps to support a missionary family in Cambodia because we know that we have a mission to the Jew first, but also to the Gentile.

We aren't defeatists, TC--we're victors in our King. And our King has warned us that there are some hard battles in our near future, and to be prepared for the fight. Therefore, we "pause and glorify God for His sovereign calling of His elect in Christ Jesus" as we sharpen our swords and check our armor to see if it needs repair.

You, on the other hand, refuse to admit the enormity of the battle to come, preferring to wear rose-colored glasses. Preterists are the Neville Chamberlains of the prophetic world, preaching peace, peace, when there is no peace. After WWI, you proclaimed an end to war and the victory of the Gospel--that didn't stop WWII or the rise of Islam, or the return of occultism to the mainstream in the West.

It's time to wake up, TC. Even in your own eschatology, even if you believe we are currently in the Millennium, there comes a time when the Dragon rises from the Abyss to deceive the nations. And if you believe that Satan was bound and most of the world still in the darkness of deception, how much greater will the lie be when he is loosed? How do you know that he hasn't been loosed already?

It's pre-dawn, and the sky is red. Are you ready?

Shalom.

[topcat54]

you would know that "kosher" is Rabbinical and not scriptural.

Thank you for your insight. That is precisely why I put the phrase in quotes.

The question on the table, does the keeping of any food laws make one holier, more pleasing, in the sight of God? Is it a plus/minus or a neutral on God's eyes?

[Buggman]

Hmm . . . here's one of my own:

Christian pastors have made a decree.
(I use the term shepherds quite loosely!)
Of the census just taken they all do agree.
All Jews in Messiah are no longer free.
Pork is the standard,
That's how it must be!
I cannot rebel and must surely see.
The doctrine of grace that once set me free,
Though noble indeed,
Was not meant for me.
Twas meant for the Gentile,
But not for the Jew.
Such freedom of culture,
Though lofty a view,
Cannot be partaken or given a thought.
Once given this "freedom,"
Assimilation is wrought.
But despite their opinion,
I still hold to mine.
The Torah of true freedom,
I'll never decline.
The Gospel defends it,
And this truth does voice.
Not one yod shall pass away.
To this I rejoice!

Shalom.

[topcat54]

TC, the real problem here is that you don't seem to actually read Dispensationalist authors and come to an opinion of them from their own words--you read their critics, assume that anything bad said about a Dispensationalist must be true, and start promoting it.

Oh, good, perhaps you can answer the burning question of which ones I'm supposed to read.

But I must say that you may come and inspect my library at any time. I've been collecting dispensational writings for 30+ years. Read most of them, in fact. So other than trying to change the subject, what is your point?

Speaking of CMA, I’ve had family members who were CMA. Worshipped many times in CMA congregation. Had a good friend who was a CMA pastor. We discussed this matter on several occasions. I think I know what makes (some of) them tick.

BTW, just to be fair, how many "replacement theologians" have you read?

As xzins succinctly put it, we think preterists are in error (in my case, partially in error); you think Dispensationalists are evil,

You don’t know what goes on in my head, and since I have never made such an outrageous claim, to repeat such a charge borders on forum rules about making it personal. BTW, it was Marlowe that made the original charge. I’m not sure if we was speaking for xzins.

You, on the other hand, refuse to admit the enormity of the battle to come,

Well, I can agree there is a future spiritual battle without having to swallow the futurists’ theories and speculations hook, line and sinker.

"For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places."

[topcat54]

"Messiah" means "Anointed," and to a 1st Century Jewish audience primarily referred to the Anointed King (though the Essenes also believed in an Anointed Priest, whose role Yeshua also fulfills)--even preterists admit that He went to Jerusalem to be the Sacrifice, not to sit on a throne, which was Hagee's whole point

Not exactly. What Reformed folks (not just preterists) generally believe is that Christ did come to sit on a throne, but not a literal throne in literal Jerusalem ala the futurists. Every King has a throne. To deny the throne if to deny the present Kingship of Christ.

Of course there is no "literal" throne in the new covenant, any more than there is a literal altar for sacrifices, or a literal temple. Christ’s throne is in heaven where it was always intended to be by God. He is making all His enemies His footstool even as we speak. Has been for 2000 years since His ascension and session at the right hand of the Father. The temple of God is in heaven, in the new Jerusalem, where Christ now reigns on the throne of David.

It is the delayed, earthly millennial kingdom notion that we disagree with. Hagee just has a new twist on the problem.

[topcat54]

The doctrine of grace that once set me free,
Though noble indeed,
Was not meant for me.
Twas meant for the Gentile,
But not for the Jew.

I thought you were a gentile.

[Buggman]

Oh, good, perhaps you can answer the burning question of which ones I'm supposed to read.

All of the ones you criticize. "He who answers a matter before he hears it, it is a follow and a shame unto him." (Pro. 18:13)

You'll notice I didn't challenge you on Smith. You quoted him directly and Xzins is more familiar with him, so I've left that alone. But you did attack Hagee through a third-party site that completely missed his point. Since I'm familiar with the work in question there, I can say with all certainty that if you did read it, you failed to understand it.

BTW, just to be fair, how many "replacement theologians" have you read?

Quite a few. Feel free to come over and inspect my library sometime.

The difference is, TC, I'm attacking the view--you're the one attacking individuals with wild accusations of false prophethood and heresy.

You don’t know what goes on in my head, and since I have never made such an outrageous claim, to repeat such a charge borders on forum rules about making it personal.

TC, we can only judge by what you post here. You're never content to simply debate the theological merits of peterism vs. futurism--you've always got to try to throw mud on the opposition. If you want us to stop calling you on it, then stop doing it.

Besides, my cast-iron friend, didn't you just get finished claiming that premill automatically makes us pessimistic? If you're going to complain about attempts to read your mind, perhaps you shouldn't engage in telepathic experiments yourself.

Well, I can agree there is a future spiritual battle without having to swallow the futurists’ theories and speculations hook, line and sinker.

Then stop complaining that we're not optimistic enough to suit you. It isn't pessimism to point out the truth that storming Normandy Beach is going to be rough.

Shalom.

[Alex Murphy]

As xzins succinctly put it, we think preterists are in error (in my case, partially in error); you think Dispensationalists are evil

Buggman, allow me to quote topcat54 from a post he made in 2006. And Buggman, you were on his distribution list when he sent it. Are these the words of someone who "think[s] Dispensationalists are evil"?

Eschatology is a secondary issue. While every idea has implications, whether you are a futurist or preterist or historicist does not affect your standing in Christ. Thus, there are no "absolute proofs" when it comes to an issue such as this. If there were, then one of us would be well-received within the larger body of Christ and the other would be on the outside as a heretic, like the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. (I realize you have been working hard to call me a heretic, but have refrained so far from doing so.)

I have no wish to separate from brothers over the matter of the second coming. As long as you can affirm a visible, personal second coming of Christ at the end of the age to coincide with a bodily resurrection and judgement of all men, then you're OK in my book. That's because there are no "absolute proofs" that your eschatology is wrong and mine is right (or vice versa).

And in case there's any question about my own standing, here's a similar quote from me, circa 2006:

I'm a highly opinionated postmil myself :P, but I don't believe eschatology is a make-or-break issue for Christians.

And another from me, from earlier that same year:

Listing a particular eschatology in one's Statement of Faith is IMO a bad idea. Historically speaking, none of the basic protestant eschatologies - pre, mid or postmil - have ever been held to be heretical by the orthodox church. All should be permitted within a Statement of Faith, IMO.

[Buggman]

I'm engaged (well, will be after the 17th--that's the soonest I could get the violinist) to a Jewish woman with a little girl. Since children of mixed Jew/Gentile parents almost invariably assimilate, and since I refuse to assist in the assimilation of any Jew, I circumcised a few months back. Our children will be raised unambiguously Jewish, and unambiguously Messianic.

Before you start, it has nothing to do with salvation, nor does it make me any holier than a Gentile Christian. It's just a matter of choosing a peoplehood and culture, like Hudson Taylor did when he "went native" to preach the Gospel in China.

I would have written the same response anytime in the last four years, though. The "Jews have to eat ham sandwiches to prove their faith" bologna (pun intended) has annoyed me for at least that long.

Shalom.

[topcat54]

Before I became Messianic, I was a member of the Christian Missionary Alliance, which is premillennial to the core.

BTW, did you happen to catch the brief account of one of the books I'm reading over here? It’s written by a CMA author from 1933. Fascinating stuff.

[Buggman]

What Reformed folks (not just preterists) generally believe is that Christ did come to sit on a throne, but not a literal throne in literal Jerusalem ala the futurists.

Yeah, but not until after the Resurrection, correct? The point still remains.

Christ’s throne is in heaven where it was always intended to be by God.

Oh? When did David rule heaven?

It is the delayed, earthly millennial kingdom notion that we disagree with. Hagee just has a new twist on the problem.

Which still puts him well within the bounds of Biblical Orthodoxy, and those who have branded him a heretic accuse him falsely or through ignorance. Take your pick.

[Uri’el-2012]

XS>you would know that "kosher" is Rabbinical and not scriptural.

Thank you for your insight. That is precisely why I put the phrase in quotes.

The question on the table, does the keeping of any food laws make one holier, more pleasing, in the sight of God? Is it a plus/minus or a neutral on God's eyes?

127 posted on December 2, 2008 11:27:40 AM MST by topcat54

I pray that is a rhetorical question.

Exod. 20:6; Deut. 5:10; 7:9; 11:1, 13; 30:16; Jos. 22:5; Neh. 1:5;
Ps. 119:47f, 127; Dan. 9:4; Jn. 14:15, 21; 15:10; 1 Jn. 5:2f; 2 Jn. 1:6

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai

[TaraP]

NO one is born a Christian like Jews, who are automatically Jewish if there mother is....

You can be an Atheist and still Jewish, you will remain either a Jew or Gentile until you seek, embrace and believe Jesus Christ is the Son of the one true living GOD, that he is the only way for human beings *sinners* to be reconciled with a Holy Just GOD...

Jesus said *I AM THE TRUTH THE WAY AND THE LIFE* no one comes to the father but by me..

GOD sees us all the same *Sinners* that are in need of redemption..It is only human beings that label each other and put them neatly in a box to identify who they are..

We are ALL ONE IN CHRIST or we are ALL ONE in SIN AND DEATH...

Just my 2 cents...:)

[topcat54]

The difference is, TC, I'm attacking the view--you're the one attacking individuals with wild accusations of false prophethood and heresy.

There is no difference. You are guilty of things you claim for others. The constant harangue about "replacement theology," the boogeyman term invented to scare the unsuspecting, is just one bit of evidence.

TC, we can only judge by what you post here.

I could only wish that would be the criteria. No, you purport to know what is going on in my heart. You glommed on to Marlowe "evil" comment with apparent relish.

didn't you just get finished claiming that premill automatically makes us pessimistic?

I said that dispensational premillennialism is essentially pessimistic. That’s a matter of fact, not opinion. By every account the near term view is not very bright. Millions dead. Mass destruction of cities. Two thirds of Israeli gone. Even your view of the millennium is essentially pessimistic. In spite of the fact that Christ is ruling in person from a literal throne in Jerusalem, which premils needs to make much about, Christ is still found with His back up against the wall at the very end. It takes divine intervention, fire from heaven, to avert disaster (Rev. 20:9). Humiliation a second time for Messiah.

[mbeeber]

You either have a short memory, or are prone to mockery. More than likely it is the latter. I indicated in a previous thread that I am a Messianic Jew and that my father was a Polish Jew, whose family perished in the Holocaust. My mother was also Jewish, whose family immigrated from Romania at the turn of the 20th century.