Posted on 08/21/2008 1:45:32 PM PDT by Gamecock
Ouch! But, I was referring to you and all other believers. Of course the comfort and confidence is for the believers, even you don’t think the unbeliever has a claim on the “peace that passes understanding”, do you?
The spirit of Pharisaism is that a person gets favor from God because they have it coming. I am admitting I cannot do the letter of the Law, and neither could John Calvin. If that’s what you think the reformed thinking is about, then shame on us. We have utterly and completely misrepresented the Scripture. I wouldn’t like me either, if I give you the impression this is due to any good thing found in me. It is not. The remark, “Who are you...” came from Rom. 9, not me. Paul is the speaker, not me.
So, if you think that you are rescued because you chose, you decided to seek God, you came to your senses, I am just explaining that a Calvinist thinks the opposite. We do not possess the wherewithal to make the choice, we do not seek God, we don’t come to our senses. Believers are sought and rescued by the Shepherd, not because they sought Him, but because He came and invaded our lives and made us alive, while we were yet dead in our trespasses and sin. “I chose you, you did not choose me.” Grace really is “unmerited favor”. I am not excluding you, I am pointing out what a Grace has been poured out on you. Acts 13:48 “...and all that were appointed unto eternal life believed.” That’s you too.
He was an Anglican
In Wesley's lifetime, ALL Methodists were Anglicans--except in America, where the Methodist Episcopal Church was a separate body following Wesley's consecration of Dr Thomas Coke and Rev Francis Asbury as the first two Methodist Episcopal bishops.
Further, in the sense that the previous poster was using the term, he meant Methodist as opposed to Arminian/Calvinist. Another term for it is Wesleyan-Arminianism (or High Arminianism), which is, to quote Wesley, "a hair's breadth from Calvinism."
Well, you since ignore your own advice, I feel free to lift some single verses to support my side of the debate.
"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world" (1 John 2:2).
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16).
"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:4).
"Who (speaking of Christ) gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time" (1 Timothy 2:6).
"For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead" (2 Corinthians 5:14).
"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature" (Mark 16:15).
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9).
"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent" (Acts 17:30).
"Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life (Romans 5:18).
"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man" (Hebrews 2:9).
Calvinist doctrine says God instructs them to tell all men, including the reprobate, that if they believe in the death, burial, and ressurection of Jesus Christ and accept his sacrifice they will be saved. According to Calvinist doctrine those reprobated unto eternal damnation for His good pleasure (John Calvin-Institutes) are damned to eternal punishment and therefore are to be told a lie (according to their doctrine)
It’s not so much a lie as an exercise in futility. In the Calvinistic scheme, IF the reprobate repented and believed, they would be saved—but the catch is that since they are reprobate, they WON’T.
I do not understand your point. In Reform theology all men are reprobate. Then the elect are imbued with irreistable grace which allows them to be regenerated (involuntarily) (born again-a new man). At this point one is "born again" as Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3. So far there is not a drop of blood shed in Calvinism. The elect are regenerated so they can then have faith (involuntary) followed by a voluntary exercise of faith. But that would mean 'faith' is a gift of faith that is not equal to believing in Christ. In other words, as money muct be spent, so faith must be exercised. Can Biblical faith, which is saving faith, be viewed as anything less than, or short of, faith in Jesus Christ.
As Sproul says, "The elect are saved to have faith." The Bible says, "Those who have faith are saved".
KThere is no ambiguity regarding the sequence of events that occur for the elect to be saved.The Calivinist could say, faith can precede and lead to justification and still not allow a man to take credit for justification because the fith that lead to justification is a gift from God. Scripturally speaking, however, since faith is neither a work nor a meritorious act of any kind God can require a man to believe as a condition of justification, or regeneration for that matter, without surrendering any of the credit to man. But they do not because of the Calvinist distinctive of total depravity. So the entire schema of Calvinism is designed to fit the decrees of the Pope of Genieva.
I do not care so much about winning a debate, but am concerned about your welfare and others'. I would ask that we consider if what has been written has been written in love. Consider all in the light of eternity (our days are numbered here), and consider carefully the motives, whether carnal pride (the "yeast of the Pharisees"), or conviction of sin, or out of genuine concern for the spiritual welfare of others. Churches today are full of fleshly and world-centered appeal, and filled with people who are blithely marching down the road to Hell. I realize this is neither popular nor comfortable to consider. Alexander Comrie wrote that many become Christians with a "skip and a jump" and then continue on as though nothing in their lives had changed. That was in the 1700s, and man's nature (incl. yours and mine) has not changed since. We do not want to hear those dreadful, final words: "I never knew ye; depart from me, ye workers of iniquity." The warning you cited, Acts 17:30, applies to you and me as well - even as professing Christians! - and not just one time, but all our lives.
Now I command you Calvinists, says the Lord, to go and lie to the reprobate. The inconsistency of Calvins inscription on God Himself is an abomination against the very nature of God.
An irresistible call is a forced response. Force does not prescribe our love to God. We have no choice in the Calvinist distinctives. Uncondititional elecation is an invention necessitating the invention of irresistable transformation. Both are theological inventions and are therefore meaningless as to regarding Biblical teachings. God has factored into our natures 'volition'. Calvinism asks Christianity to embrace a God who dissociates His Holiness from His Sovereignty.
Why does Calvinism deny God the right to save by Grace through Faith as the Bible says?
If God knew before creation that “in due time” our “Christ” would die “for the ungodly.”, AND He knew that Huxley would be lost, then what does it say about whether ANYTHING would ever have saved Huxley?
Not meaning to pick holes in your coat, but by the above words, are you saying that man, in his natural state (for want of a better term) would not, instinctively, seek God? Yet how can this be? Were we not created by God and in His image? Has it to do with the incident in the Garden of Eden? But didn't the Almighty foresee this...and make allowances? After all, he was willing to negotiate with Lot, and yet Adam and his descendants were damned for all eternity for a single transgression? One that God for saw would be made?
How disingenuine of you. You say they will not....but Calvinism says God prevents them from repenting. You say won't , but you know the proper characterization in the Reform distinctive of Unconditional election is that John Calvin says God has reprobated the nonelect to the eternal fires of damnation for all etermity FOR HIS GOOD PLEASURE. Not they won't, they CAN'T You know that, yet you obfuscate this from readers who have not studied this issue. Why do you choose to....should I say lie, or prevaricate, or obfuscate....I will say...obfuscate. Whatever you call it you liable the very nature and name of God of the Bible.
Somehow, I find it ironic that I’m explaining and defending Calvinism on a Calv/Arm thread.
Friend, I would urge that you consider something about your premise: that God’s highest aim may not be in saving all men, but glorifying His name - the elect, in saving them through Christ, and the reprobate, in condemning them for their sins. Thus, who is elect and who is not is none of our business. It is a practical doctrine of comfort for the believer. Think of Bunyan’s Christian, and the many times he needed encouragement on his long journey to the New Jerusalem. Are there times you need encouragement? This beautiful doctrine - how God foreknew and foreloved you in Christ from eternity - provides what your weary soul needs.
My premise is not that the highest aim is to save all men, but it is clearly written that it is not the will of God that any should perish. He loved them so much that He became a man and took on my and your sins that we might be reconciled to Him,....not because of who we are, but because of who He is...that God is Love. God is a consuming fire taking vengence on them that know not God. It is not the will of God that some not know Him, but he cannot dispense Mercy at the expence of His Justice. He has provided the only Way for a world of sinners to be reconciled to Him. If they refuse Him they have refused life. But they are not forced to reject as Calvin says, buy they exercise their own volition to reject Him.
You say the elect have no buisness in trying to bring the reprobate to God, yet we are told to go to the highways and hedges and compel them to come to Him. Preach the Word to every creature. These admonitions come from the very God you say we are to believe 'enjoy', for 'His Good Pleasure' burning people in eternal torment, For His Good Pleasure....that is what Calvin taught. That is not the God of the Bible. God takes no pleasure in the punishment of the wicked. I am sure it breaks His heart when a sinner rejects Life eternal for Hell.
Calvinism and his followers have made God out to be the primary and responsible cause of all misery on this planet. While it is difficult (if not impossible) for some Calvinists to admit this (especially to a non-calvinist) Calvin and Calvinism points a very slanderous finger at God. To say that it is "none of our buisness, just Gods' buisness", is irresponsible. You cannot have unconditional election without unconditional reprobation any more than you can have one side of a coin without the other. John Calvin, to his credit, did make this absolutely clear. 1 Tim.2:3-4 says, "God our Savioir desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."
In the final analysis one has to make a choice. They must choose either John 3"16, "For God so love the world that he gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life", or they believe John Calvin. Me......I'll take the clear, unadulterated teachings of Jesus Christ of Nazareth every, single time.
I would know this from you: Where did you get the idea that I said the elect have no business trying to bring the reprobate to God? The clear imperative is to share the Gospel with every living creature.
The knowledge of who is elect and who is not - what God ultimately does with that seeding and watering - is none of our business. Else, why the free offer of the Gospel?
Regarding Calvin's thought, he simply articulated the inclination of every unregenerate human being. All of us. No one is righteous, not one seeketh after God. That is our natural, tragic state of sin. What a tragedy indeed! What we need is a miracle.
See, this is the very difficult part for us, as mere men: reconciling the Scriptures. I made this point to another gentleman here this evening, about lifting particular ones above others. The difficult part - the same Jesus of Nazerth also spoke the clear, unadulterated words of John 6:44: "No one can come to me except the Father that sent me draw him." We could get into a dueling verses battle and go all night, and yet accomplish little. The same Bible that contains the one contains the other as well. My conclusions, imperfect as they are because I am a sinful man, are based on that. God is not schizophrenic, nor a God of confusion, nor unable to save - we pray for unsaved loved ones in the hope that God will hear our prayer and work mighty works by His spirit to bring the dead to life. Ultimately, it is up to - not the creature, but the Creator. Otherwise is to deny His sovereignty, and place the creature on the Creator's throne. "Thy will, not mine, be done."
As to God causing all misery: volition vs. permission. God's mercy is seen through saving out of the mass of fallen humanity those that He has chosen - to the praise of His glorious grace. He permitted man to fall into sin, by the instigation of Satan the deceiver. He did not volitionally, willfully cause the fall however, the very thought of which is blasphemy. Yet it is all in His plan, and all brings glory ultimately to God. The Spirit-wrought seed of saving faith spoken of in John 3:16 - the glory goes to God for His love through Jesus Christ, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
It has not pleased God to give us a simple formula. He gave us the whole Bible - would that we all spend more time in God's Word! Unless we are willing to compromise its inerrency - in which case we call into question the whole of its authority and the basis for our blessed hope - we must take it as it is and, working in a prayerful and humble spirit, draw conclusions from there. That is the work of the theologian and should be the duty of every believer.
You are quite correct about believing on the Lord Jesus Christ, to which I respond with a hearty yea and amen. He is the Way to eternal life. Remember that ALL of His teachings are there for us.
The Calvinists says that because God must draw many people cannot believe and be saved. In doing so, they give the unsaved an excuse for their unbelief and lostness. Jesus suggests that God draws so that all men can believe and be saved and so that no one will have an excuse for not believing. Both Calvinsts and non-Calvinist Evangelical recognize that God draws and that if He did not draw a man to Christ , no man would or could believe in Christ. The Calvinist, however, uses this word "draw" to exclude (in his thinking and theology) most of the lost from ever becoming saved. It is, however, the drawing work of God that makes it possible for all unabelievers to abecome believers. Exactly what he does to draw us we are not told in this passage. Perhaps John 16:8 hold the answer. Jesus says, "When He (the Holy Spirit) has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of rightousness adn of judgement."
Whatever the convicting work of the Holy Spirit is, it is work on the world. He does not (in this context) have the church in focus. That is, our Lord had the lost in mind, not the saved. John 1:7 says, "This man came for a witness to bear witness of the Light, that ALL through him might believe". John 3:15-18 is so frequently quoted that I will not restate it here. In John 12:32, we read, "..if I am lifted up from the earth I will DRAW all people to Myself."The New King James version uses the word "people" instead of "men" which many translators do use. So, "If I be lifted up from the earth I will draw all men to Myself." Thus if the drawing referred to in John 6:44 (ie.by the Father) can be translated fored, coerced, or dragged, could we not say the same for the drawing in John 12:12-13 (by the Son) If being drawn to Christ leads necessarily and inevitably to saving faith in Christ, it would lead to universalism, which Calvinists rightly reject. John 6:44 does say that everyone that comes to Christ must be enabled to do so, and in fact is enabled to do so by being drawn. It does not tell us that everyone who is drawn to Christ comes to Christ. Even so, Calvin taught"To come to Christ being here used metaphorically for believing, the Evangelist...says that those persons are drawn whose understandings God enlightens, and whose hearts he bends and forms to the obedience of Christ. The statement amounts to this...no man will ever of himself be able to come to Christ, but God must first approach him by his Spirit; and hence it follows that all are not drawn, but that God bestows this grace on those whom he has elected.
True, indeed, as to the kind of drawing, it is not violent, so as to compel men by external force; but still it is a powerful impulse of the Holy Spirit, which makes men willing who formerly were unwilling and reluctant. It is a false and profane assertion, theerefore, thatn non are drawn but those who are willing to be drawn, as if man made himself obedient to God by his own efforts; for the willingness with which men follow God is what they already have from himself, who has formed their hearts to obey Him."
BKeing enabled to come to Christ and actually coming to Christ, and necessarily coming (being compelled) are not the same. The ability to come to Christ is from God alone. The responsibility to come belief in Christ, is ours. The question is not, as Calvinists suggest, "can a lost and spiritually impotent man resist an all powerful God who has determined to save a person not matter what?" Instead, the question is "has God determined to save such a person no matter what?" The scriptures respond with a resounding, NO!
On another subject. You say, "Where did you get the idea that I said the elect have no buisness trying to bring the reprobate to God? As a Calvinist, why would you even try. It cannot be done according to Calvinist distinctives. God thunders out to you, "Thou shalt not lie!" Then you say he tells you to go forth and lie to the reprobate, telling them that they can have everlasting life if they come to Jesus, with you knowing that, according to Calvinism, that is not true. Why do you assert that God tempts the reprobate, when the scripture clearly says God does not tempt any to sin.
I could go on, but it is late. Have a good night.
Of course, that's not what Calvinists say at all. Calvinists believe the Gospel call should be preached to all men, confident that those to whom God gives new ears and new eyes and a renewed mind and a rebirth, all by the Holy Spirit, will at a time of God's choosing, believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.
Calvinists believe in the Biblical truth that unless a man is born again by the Holy Spirit, that man will not want to believe.
And a man's rebirth by the Holy Spirit is not man's decision, but God's decision, ordained to occur from before the foundation of the world when God's plan of creation in all its scope and detail was purposed by God for His glory. Every jot and tittle. Every hair numbered. Every star named.
"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." -- Ephesians 1:4-6
"And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." -- John 6:65 "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." -- Romans 9:16
Obviously all men do not receive saving grace or else all men would be saved. God's grace accomplishes that which God ordains. It is not a slight thing, God's grace. It is the enlivening spirit of all that exists. Saving grace is Christ paying for a man's sins so that he then stands blameless before God because the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world has taken on the punishment rightly due him, all through nothing in himself; through God's unmerited mercy alone.
Calvinism simply 1) states the obvious; and 2) gives all the glory to God alone, from beginning to end.
I assume you've read the same parable of the sower Calvin read...
Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended."-- Matthew 13:20-21"But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
It wasn’t apt. It was over-defensive and ill-informed.
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