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To: Petronski; annalex; Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock; Alex Murphy; xzins; P-Marlowe; HarleyD; wmfights; ...
If God wanted to ensure all were saved, He would simply make it so.

EUREKA!!! :) That is what we have been saying from the beginning. Many Catholics have defended to me the idea that God wills all to be saved, quoting scripture that appears to say that on the surface. I have countered that such verses are outward calls, but not decrees. So, I am glad that we can agree that God did not want to ensure that all are saved. The follow-up question for you would be do you think that God wanted to ensure that ANY are saved?

What He wants is for us to choose to love Him.

And I would say that an omnipotent Being always gets what He wants, so if the "us" is the elect then I agree with you.

God does not fail by creating us with the free will to choose Him or not choose Him. Quite the opposite! He succeeds in creating exactly what He wants.

But if He is omnipotent then He fails if He doesn't get what He wants. And IF what He wants is what you say, that men should decide for themselves, then by definition it means that God DOESN'T CARE who gets into Heaven, individually. If God cared and wanted YOU in Heaven then He could arrange for you to believe, that is, He could convince you. No gun to the head or anything. However, if God didn't care then He might leave that decision to you. I can't imagine my personal God not caring one way or the other if I, personally, wound up with Him in Heaven or not. If He left that decision to the sorry likes of me, under Catholic beliefs, then that's exactly what it would mean.

What is more valuable? A chat conversation with a loved one who truly loves you, or a pre-programmed text generator that states love for you because you built it to do that?

Well, the machine analogy doesn't apply to our thinking because we say up front that God gave us a will. From birth, that will can only go down one path. For the elect, God changes/replaces that will with something that will choose Him WILLINGLY. God gave me a will that was able to see the OBVIOUS truth, and so I made an OBVIOUS choice.

924 posted on 08/08/2008 7:30:56 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Forest Keeper
EUREKA!!! :)

I do find it interesting that many here seem to worship at the altar of free will as if God never interferes with man's free will. If God did not possess both the power to interfere with our free will and the desire to overcome our free will and to make us willing, then NOBODY would ever seek after Christ.

The fact that anyone would ever seek after Christ is evidence that God has interfered with their free will and has in some way changed their will to conform to his.

If God will not interfere with our free will choices, then we are doomed by our nature to reject him and we are wholly incapable of being saved.

Carry on.

925 posted on 08/08/2008 8:01:08 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: Forest Keeper; Petronski; annalex; Dr. Eckleburg; Alex Murphy; xzins; P-Marlowe; HarleyD; ...
If God wanted to ensure all were saved, He would simply make it so.

The problem that needs to be addressed here, is why did God create some in a nation where it is almost unavoidable to here the Gospel message, and others over the last 2000 years who would never hear it.

If God wanted all to be saved why were there, NO, why are there still people alive who will never hear the Gospel?

The elect will hear the Gospel, the Holy Spirit will regenerate them, and the fire of faith will be lit, never to be in heart and mind of the elect.

Now the Catholic Catechism has a special place for those who seek God in Buddha, Allah or some in some rock or tree. But that is just another example of where Rome clearly contradicting Scripture.

953 posted on 08/09/2008 8:35:37 AM PDT by Gamecock (The question is not, "Am I good enough to be a Christian?" rather "Am I good enough not to be?")
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