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To: LiteKeeper
What does [clericalism] have to do with fighting secularism?

Why, a lot. The Catholic Church believes that there are lines of authority that go from Christ and through His Church and they completely bypass the civil magistrate. If the state passes laws that accord with the Natural Law, we support the state; if it passes laws that don't, we ignore these laws. Specifically, these are the things that are together uniquely Catholic, that are each a bastion against the forces of secularism (from my earlier post on another thread):


82 posted on 07/30/2008 11:54:40 AM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex
insistence on biblical inerrancy free from fundamentalist literalism;
Why would literalism be a disadvantage. And how can you say the Scriptures are "inerrant" but not take them literally? You would have to depend on some human authority to decide the meaning apart from the words themselves. The secular world would never accept this authority.

hierarchical structure with immutable 2 thousand year-old agenda
No weight or authority to this argument at all...again, relying on human, not divine authority.

absence of independent local leadership
What has this got to do with anything? non sequitor

moral absolutes that derive from natural law and therefore apply to Catholics and non-Catholics alike
Why is this a RC distinctive? Protestants believe the same thing?

monastic tradition
How does this possibly counter secularism? non sequitor

independent from the government education by celibate clergy
Another non sequitor. How could this possibly counter secularism?

conditional obedience to civil laws: a law that the Church sees as unjust does not have to be obeyed no matter how many people voted for it
And this differs from Protestant position how?

Your arguments are vacuous and full of non sequitors...you have proved absolutely nothing!

103 posted on 07/30/2008 1:45:16 PM PDT by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
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To: annalex
Specifically, these are the things that are together uniquely Catholic, that are each a bastion against the forces of secularism (from my earlier post on another thread):

By "Catholic," I assume that you are referring to the Church of Rome, which arrogantly and incorrectly refers to itself as "the Catholic Church".

* insistence on biblical inerrancy free from fundamentalist literalism;

LOL!  What is it then?  The Bible means what is says, except when it contradicts the teachings of Rome?  No.  The Bible means what it says, and says what it means.

* hierarchical structure with immutable 2 thousand year-old agenda;

2 thousand years old?  No.  Immutable?  No,

* absence of independent local leadership;

Certainly not unique, but also a serious defect.

* moral absolutes that derive from natural law and therefore apply to Catholics and non-Catholics alike;

Natural law???  While the Roman version may indeed be unique, Muslims and Hindus also have their own versions of "natural law."  Natural law is a syncretism imported from Aristotelean philosophy and stoicism.  Biblical Christianity also has moral absolutes, but ones which are based on the Bible.

* monastic tradition;

Again, not unique.  The Orthodox and Anglican communions also have monastic traditions.  But, thankfully, Biblical Christianity does not.

* independent from the government education by celibate clergy;

Mostly unique.  But while non-government schools are a good thing, a celibate clergy is not Biblical.

* conditional obedience to civil laws: a law that the Church sees as unjust does not have to be obeyed no matter how many people voted for it.

Not unique.  There are cults which take the same position.  But this is a dangerous position, not sanctioned by the Bible, and incompatible with the American concept of liberty.  America does make allowance in some specific cases: e.g., conscientious objectors are allowed to serve in non-combat capacities, and most jurisdictions allow inoculations to be skipped by those with religious objections.  But simply that a law is believed to be "unjust?"  NO.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Amendment 1, Constitution of the US

295 posted on 08/01/2008 12:49:48 PM PDT by Celtman (It's never right to do wrong to do right.)
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