Evangelicals: Change of Heart toward Catholics

The Black Cordelias ^ | July 28, 2008 | The Black Cordelias

[annalex]

Evangelicals: Change of Heart toward Catholics

Evangelicals have been going through a major change of heart in their view of Catholicism over the past 15 years or so. In the 80’s when I was in college I lived in the Biblebelt and had plenty of experience with Evangelicals–much of it bad experience. The 80’s was the height of the “Are you saved?” question. In Virginia, the question often popped up in the first 10 minutes of getting to know someone. As I look back, Isurmise that this was coached from the pulpit or Sunday school as it was so well coordinated and almost universally applied. It was a good tactic for putting Catholics on the defensive even before it was known that they were Catholic—”ummmm, uhhh, well no, I’m not sure, I’m Catholic.” Then a conversation about works righteousness or saint statues would ensue. Yeah, nice to meet you, too.
Thankfully, those days are pretty much over. We now have formerly rabid anti-Catholics apologizing and even praising the pope. Catholics and Evangelicals have both learned that we have much in common and need each other to face the secular culture with a solid front. But, where did this detente come from? I think there is a real history to be told here and a book should be written. Let me give my perceptions of 7 major developments since 1993, which I regard as the the watershed year for the renewal of the Catholic Church in the United States.

1. The Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1993. When this document came out, it was uncertain that even Catholics would read it. We should have known that something was up when the French version hit the top of the bestsellers charts in France and stayed there for months. The English version did the same in the US. Catholics were reading the Catechism, forming study groups and challenging errant professors in the classroom.

2. World Youth Day, Denver 1993. Catholic youth and youth ministers woke up. Suddenly, Catholic youth ministers realized that the youth loved the pope. And they loved him all the more because he did not talk down to them or water down the faith. He challenged them. Gone now were the pizza and a video parish youth nights. Furthermore, youth and young adults took up the challenge to evangelize. One of those youth heard the message and started a website, New Advent. Catholic youth were now becoming zealous for the Catholic faith in its fullness and were not going to be swayed by an awkward conversation that began with “Are you saved?”

3. Scott Hahn. While the Catechism is great for expounding the Catholic faith, it is not a work of apologetics itself. It is not written to expose the flaws of Evangelical theology. It is not written to defend the Church against the attacks of Evangelicals per se. It just would not let them get away with misrepresenting the Catholic faith. But Scott Hahn hit the scene at about the same time with Rome Sweet Home: Our Journey to Catholicism (Ignatius Press: San Francisco, 1993). I first heard his testimony on cassette tape in 1996. It blew my mind. Suddenly, Catholic apologetics, which is as old as the Catholic Church itself, got a leg up and there was an explosion of books, magazines and websites that effectively undercut the arguments of the 5 Solas. For the first time, there was a cadre of Catholics well enough informed to defend their faith.

4. The Internet. The Net started exploding from 1993 to 1996. I had my first account in ‘94. Compuserve was horribly basic, but by ‘96 I had AOL and the religion debates raged instantly. Catholics who had just been given the most powerful weapon in the arsenal in the war against misinterpretation of their teaching were learning to type on a forum while balancing their catechisms on their laps. Of course, online versions came out, as well. But, no Evangelical bent on getting Catholics out of the arms of the Whore of Babylon could expect to do so without himself have a copy of the Catechism, knowing it inside out and pouring over it for the errors and horrors he would surely find. Evangelical apologists were confronted with a coherent and beautiful presentation of the Catholic faith that they were ill equipped to argue against. They learned that Catholics, too, loved Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. The Catechism had arrived providentially just before the internet and had turned the tables in just a few short years. With the apologetic movement hitting at the same time, Evangelicals were also confronted with Catholics who could argue from the Bible defending their faith and demonstrating the weaknesses of Evangelical interpretations of scripture.

5. Early Church Fathers. One fruit of the Apologetics movement has been a flowering anew of Catholic interest in Patristics. This is happening at every level from armchair apologists to doctoral studies. It is suddenly all about Patristics, whereas in the 70’s-90’s the academic focus had been on Karl Rahner and Liberation Theology.

6. Evangelical Third World Experience. Evangelicals have had a field day in Latin America among the poor who are not part of the internet conversation and are distant from the study of apologetics. But, Evangelicals have learned from their experiences abroad an essential aspect of the Gospel they were missing: the Works of Mercy. Once haughty with their criticism of “works righteousness,” they have learned one cannot attend to the spiritual needs of the poor without attending to their bodily needs. Catholic have always understood this. Now, the Evangelicals are coming around. I haven’t heard an Evangelical Televangelist speak on works righteousness in many years.

7. Secularism. With the collapse of the Mainline churches as the backbone of American religion over the past thirty years (since about 1975), Catholics and Evangelicals are the only ones left standing in this country to present the Gospel. Secularism is on the rise and is ruthless. Evangelicals are now learning that only Catholicism has the intellectual resources to combat the present secular age. And, with the pope, we have a pretty effective means for communicating the faith and representing it to the world. There is nothing an Evangelical can do that will match the power of one World Youth Day.

With such an array of Providential developments, Evangelicals as well as Catholics have come to appreciate the depth and the breadth of the Catholic faith. It is far more difficult for them to honestly dismiss Catholicism as the work of Satan as once they did without qualm. There have been apologies and there have been calls for a new partnership. Let us hope these developments will bring about a new moment of understanding for the Glory of the Lord.

[annalex]

it's Darwinian because your side says that God never interferes with man's free will

True, but man is not alone: the very fact of the Incarnation proves that. The leadership of the Holy Ghost is something promised to the Church and her continuing existence proves it, just like the state of Protestant disarray proves its absence.

[annalex]

My soul is already permenantly saved and I have the witness of the Holy Ghost concerning that (Romans 8:16; 1 John 5:10; etc.

Counterscriptural nonsense. Re-read these passages:

For the Spirit himself giveth testimony to our spirit, that we are the sons of God. (Romans 8:16)

He that believeth in the Son of God, hath the testimony of God in himself. He that believeth not the Son, maketh him a liar: because he believeth not in the testimony which God hath testified of his Son. (1 John 5:10)

If you have no need of forgiveness of sin, why did Christ authorize the Church to forgive sins (John 20:23)

[annalex]

God alone can forgive sins

You should read the gospel every now and then before you comment.

[annalex]

These are commands given the Jews prior to the Incarnation, they do not bind the Christians.

[annalex]

That notwithstanding, a statement “I am not Catholic Christian” removed one from the jurisdiction of the Holy Inquisition, which was only concerned with heresies inside the Church.

[annalex]

Youse guys just don't play nice with others

God did not call me to be nice to you; He called me to love you. This is why I wish the salvation and liberations from heresies, yours and of every man.

[annalex]

The Spanish Inquisition was not even called by the Pope. It was the king’s initiative.

[John Leland 1789]

Those Scriptures (Romans 8:16; 1 John 5:10) say exactly what I said. I have the Holy Spirit bearing witness with my spirit that I AM a child of God. Do you not have that witness?

There is no NT “church” mentioned in John 20 anywhere. You have to use isogesis from your teachings and traditions to get that.

God forgives sins directly at the Throne of Grace for Christ’s sake. No church is required to forgive anyone’s sins, nor is any church capable of it.

Christ died, furthermore for every sin, past, present and future, and there “remaineth no more sacrifice for sin.”

[Fichori]

(For reference)

¶ And God spake all these words, saying,

¶ I [am] the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

¶ Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

¶ Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:

Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;

And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

¶ Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

¶ Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates:

For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

¶ Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

¶ Thou shalt not kill.

¶ Thou shalt not commit adultery.

¶ Thou shalt not steal.

¶ Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

¶ Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that [is] thy neighbour's.

Exodus 20:1-17

“These are commands given the Jews prior to the Incarnation, they do not bind the Christians.” --annalex

Lets see what Jesus had to say about the commandments.

¶ Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,

Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.

But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

But ye say, Whosoever shall say to [his] father or [his] mother, [It is] a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;

And honour not his father or his mother, [he shall be free]. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

[Ye] hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with [their] lips; but their heart is far from me.

But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.

Matthew 15:1-9

¶ And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

Honour thy father and [thy] mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Matthew 19:16-19

¶ And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?

And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment.

And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Mar 12:28-31

Your are correct when you say "These are commands given the Jews prior to the Incarnation,".

But to simply assert that "they do not bind the Christians." is simply not true.

Throughout the scripture the intent of the ten commandments is reaffirmed.

Here is an excerpt of something I have previously written that is related to this subject and can be found in its entirety here:

If kneeling before an statue/image/likeness of Mary is not sinful worship, Catholics who do so can become a stumbling block to those who have a weak conscience, and, according to 1st Corinthians 8:12, they sin against Christ: But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.

[Fichori]

God alone can forgive sins.

“You should read the gospel every now and then before you comment.”

I can't help but notice that you did not use scripture to address what I wrote.

As far as that goes, you didn't even address what I wrote.

[trisham]

Thanks!

[wagglebee]

The Spanish Inquisition was not even called by the Pope. It was the king’s initiative.

Yeah well that doesn't matter, I've been told by FReepers that the Papacy OWNED all of Europe from about 500 until 1800.

[LiteKeeper]

I have to respectfully disagree. Only when a lifestyle of a similar sort can be shown to the secularist world will there be any hope of change. And that lifestyle must be one that is Christ-centered, and deals with the everyday vagaries of life. Monasticism can do none of that...unless you are encouraging the secularist to live as the monastic does.

[annalex]

I do not dispute that you are a child of God; we all are, and Romans 8:16 does say that. It does not say that you are in no need of sacramental confession.

NT “church” mentioned in John 20 anywhere.

Not directly, although the Apostles were the proto-Church. However, the comission to forgive sins is given to the Apostles.

[annalex]

the intent of the ten commandments is reaffirmed.

That is correct. We obey the Ten Commandments as they are exlpained, expanded and interpreted by Jesus, or if they arise from the natural law. The prohibition of making and venerating images is not repeated by Jesus and it is natural for a Christian to have a devotion to His Blessed Mother.

[annalex]

did not use scripture

21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

(John 20)

[annalex]

Monasticism demonstrates how people willingly and gladly take on vows of obedience to their religious order, and quite taxing vows at that. This questions the secular value system.

[Fichori]

“That is correct. We obey the Ten Commandments as they are exlpained, expanded and interpreted by Jesus,” [excerpt]

Or the Pope.

“or if they arise from the natural law.” [excerpt]

Natural law?

Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Ephesians 2:3

¶ But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

2nd Petter 2:12

But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

Jude 1:10

“The prohibition of making and venerating images is not repeated by Jesus and it is natural for a Christian to have a devotion to His Blessed Mother.” [excerpt]

Think again:

And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment.

Mark 12:30

Other NT authors also had something to say on idols:

But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal.

Romans 11:4

Whether it be an image of Baal or Mary, you don't get a free pass to bow your knee to an image.

Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

1st John 5:21

But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood.

Act 15:20

Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

1st Corinthians 12:2

And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

2nd Corinthians 6:16

Here is what Jesus had to say about his 'Blessed Mother':

¶ And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed [is] the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.

But he said, Yea rather, blessed [are] they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Luke 11:27-28

This is pretty clear:

For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Romans 14:11

It is God we are to bow the knee to, not some image carved in stone.

[Fichori]

21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

(John 20)

To quote C. H. Spurgeon:

“That is to say, "As you proclaim my gospel, I will back up your message; when you preach of pardoning blood, I will make it efficacious. When you declare to penitent sinners that their sins are remitted, it shall be so; and when you tell those who believe not that they are condemned already, and that except they repent they shall abide in condemnation, their sins shall still be retained." The true minister of God speaketh not apart from the Word of God, and when he speaks the Word of God, the God of the Word is himself there to make it effectual. It shall be no brutum fulmen, no wasted thunderbolt; it shall fall in reality, and what the servant of Christ declares, according to the Scriptures, shall really be proved to be true.”

[annalex]

Natural law is part of the Divine law that is descernible by reason alone, without the help of divine revelation.

A statue of a saint would be an idol if that statue were worshiped. A person bowing down to Mary is worshiping no one but her Son.

Luke 11:27-28 explains that all the saints are to be venerated and not just the Blessed Virgin.