Posted on 07/29/2008 4:39:52 PM PDT by annalex
Evangelicals have been going through a major change of heart in their view of Catholicism over the past 15 years or so. In the 80’s when I was in college I lived in the Biblebelt and had plenty of experience with Evangelicals–much of it bad experience. The 80’s was the height of the “Are you saved?” question. In Virginia, the question often popped up in the first 10 minutes of getting to know someone. As I look back, Isurmise that this was coached from the pulpit or Sunday school as it was so well coordinated and almost universally applied. It was a good tactic for putting Catholics on the defensive even before it was known that they were Catholic—”ummmm, uhhh, well no, I’m not sure, I’m Catholic.” Then a conversation about works righteousness or saint statues would ensue. Yeah, nice to meet you, too.
Thankfully, those days are pretty much over. We now have formerly rabid anti-Catholics apologizing and even praising the pope. Catholics and Evangelicals have both learned that we have much in common and need each other to face the secular culture with a solid front. But, where did this detente come from? I think there is a real history to be told here and a book should be written. Let me give my perceptions of 7 major developments since 1993, which I regard as the the watershed year for the renewal of the Catholic Church in the United States.
1. The Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1993. When this document came out, it was uncertain that even Catholics would read it. We should have known that something was up when the French version hit the top of the bestsellers charts in France and stayed there for months. The English version did the same in the US. Catholics were reading the Catechism, forming study groups and challenging errant professors in the classroom.
2. World Youth Day, Denver 1993. Catholic youth and youth ministers woke up. Suddenly, Catholic youth ministers realized that the youth loved the pope. And they loved him all the more because he did not talk down to them or water down the faith. He challenged them. Gone now were the pizza and a video parish youth nights. Furthermore, youth and young adults took up the challenge to evangelize. One of those youth heard the message and started a website, New Advent. Catholic youth were now becoming zealous for the Catholic faith in its fullness and were not going to be swayed by an awkward conversation that began with “Are you saved?”
3. Scott Hahn. While the Catechism is great for expounding the Catholic faith, it is not a work of apologetics itself. It is not written to expose the flaws of Evangelical theology. It is not written to defend the Church against the attacks of Evangelicals per se. It just would not let them get away with misrepresenting the Catholic faith. But Scott Hahn hit the scene at about the same time with Rome Sweet Home: Our Journey to Catholicism (Ignatius Press: San Francisco, 1993). I first heard his testimony on cassette tape in 1996. It blew my mind. Suddenly, Catholic apologetics, which is as old as the Catholic Church itself, got a leg up and there was an explosion of books, magazines and websites that effectively undercut the arguments of the 5 Solas. For the first time, there was a cadre of Catholics well enough informed to defend their faith.
4. The Internet. The Net started exploding from 1993 to 1996. I had my first account in ‘94. Compuserve was horribly basic, but by ‘96 I had AOL and the religion debates raged instantly. Catholics who had just been given the most powerful weapon in the arsenal in the war against misinterpretation of their teaching were learning to type on a forum while balancing their catechisms on their laps. Of course, online versions came out, as well. But, no Evangelical bent on getting Catholics out of the arms of the Whore of Babylon could expect to do so without himself have a copy of the Catechism, knowing it inside out and pouring over it for the errors and horrors he would surely find. Evangelical apologists were confronted with a coherent and beautiful presentation of the Catholic faith that they were ill equipped to argue against. They learned that Catholics, too, loved Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. The Catechism had arrived providentially just before the internet and had turned the tables in just a few short years. With the apologetic movement hitting at the same time, Evangelicals were also confronted with Catholics who could argue from the Bible defending their faith and demonstrating the weaknesses of Evangelical interpretations of scripture.
5. Early Church Fathers. One fruit of the Apologetics movement has been a flowering anew of Catholic interest in Patristics. This is happening at every level from armchair apologists to doctoral studies. It is suddenly all about Patristics, whereas in the 70’s-90’s the academic focus had been on Karl Rahner and Liberation Theology.
6. Evangelical Third World Experience. Evangelicals have had a field day in Latin America among the poor who are not part of the internet conversation and are distant from the study of apologetics. But, Evangelicals have learned from their experiences abroad an essential aspect of the Gospel they were missing: the Works of Mercy. Once haughty with their criticism of “works righteousness,” they have learned one cannot attend to the spiritual needs of the poor without attending to their bodily needs. Catholic have always understood this. Now, the Evangelicals are coming around. I haven’t heard an Evangelical Televangelist speak on works righteousness in many years.
7. Secularism. With the collapse of the Mainline churches as the backbone of American religion over the past thirty years (since about 1975), Catholics and Evangelicals are the only ones left standing in this country to present the Gospel. Secularism is on the rise and is ruthless. Evangelicals are now learning that only Catholicism has the intellectual resources to combat the present secular age. And, with the pope, we have a pretty effective means for communicating the faith and representing it to the world. There is nothing an Evangelical can do that will match the power of one World Youth Day.
With such an array of Providential developments, Evangelicals as well as Catholics have come to appreciate the depth and the breadth of the Catholic faith. It is far more difficult for them to honestly dismiss Catholicism as the work of Satan as once they did without qualm. There have been apologies and there have been calls for a new partnership. Let us hope these developments will bring about a new moment of understanding for the Glory of the Lord.
No, none of them are regulars on the RF.
It is what it is. I have nothing to hide, but it is not within my authority to reveal my own identity as mod.
But if you are following the thread, you can also see who drops out, and whether they are banned, or just suspended.
Only if they current banned or suspended, not if they have been reinstated or come off of a suspension.
No
Yes, all the time.
“It is what it is.”
* sigh *
That's true. Many things are what they are. But they are still wrong.
In any event, Religion Moderator, it is untrue to say that we can draw no valid conclusions from the posting history of the “Religion Moderator” (I use quotes because apparently, more than one individual fills out that suit from time to time, and thus, we're looking at a composite record, not an entirely individual record).
As well, as editor-surveyor points out, it isn't hard to figure out who's been whacked, and for how long.
What biases exist can be determined reasonably fairly from the data that IS available, and not secreted away from posters.
sitetest
I’ll take that as a “no.”
Thanks for the reply.
“In your mod discussions, could you take up the topic of baiting?”
That falls under the general rubric of “Sado-Evangelism,” and is permitted by the rules of the forum.
sitetest
I must admit I think the real reason for the increased approval of Romanism among Evangelicals is due to the decline of Evangelicalism. So much was made of the Charismatic movement—with its blatant mysticism and anti-intellectualism, as well as the (just how shallow can we make a Church?) mega-Church phenomena—that many Evangelicals have no idea what salvation by Faith alone, through Christ alone, from Grace alone, communicated by Scripture alone, to the Glory of God alone is. Therefore they turn a blind eye to the same old Roman Catholic additions and corruptions.
One of those of course is simply the word “Catholic,” something I avoid. Rome is simply NOT “The” Catholic Church, even though it does contain some who are part of it, and I think all Evangelicals should realize that and stop using the vocabulary Romanists purposely use. Do a search for “Roman” above and you’ll see what I mean. Christ Jesus’ Church is and always has been universal, but the organization founded in Rome is not it.
That's good since it is your side that HAS to be innately smart enough to make the right decisions and cooperate, etc. It's sort of Darwinian. Only the smartest will grow to become Catholics and survive spiritually. :)
Coming from a . . . RC . . . .
THAT
is exceedingly rich.
Sometimes it seems like a bait shop is one of the major Vatican departments.
This is really incredible.
I think the BAITING THREAD TITLES ALONE are stacked far higher on the RC side.
Sheesh.
Fascinating.
"If you really believe you can draw a valid conclusion from information so incomplete it would not qualify as a sample,..." In that you are part of the arrangement that restricts the flow of relevant data, it's difficult to give you the benefit of the doubt that you may legitimately cast into question the conclusions that we can draw from the data that is actually available.
However, the data that IS available is voluminous. It certainly qualifies as a sample. In fact, it's more than a sample, it's a complete population. It's a rather complete sample of one kind of data - publicly-made rebukes. That it doesn't represent every kind of data that exists is another point altogether.
“...then I believe you may have identified the root problem of a lot of the ongoing disputes in ‘open’ religious debate.”
The root problem is unrelated to this issue, but rather is related to the structure of the rules, themselves.
However, the lack of transparency certainly contributes to the problems that you cite.
Ergo, the reasonable request to make greater transparency.
sitetest
INDEED.
And a few Prottys have noticed that phenomenon a long time ago.
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