Posted on 07/29/2008 4:39:52 PM PDT by annalex
Evangelicals have been going through a major change of heart in their view of Catholicism over the past 15 years or so. In the 80’s when I was in college I lived in the Biblebelt and had plenty of experience with Evangelicals–much of it bad experience. The 80’s was the height of the “Are you saved?” question. In Virginia, the question often popped up in the first 10 minutes of getting to know someone. As I look back, Isurmise that this was coached from the pulpit or Sunday school as it was so well coordinated and almost universally applied. It was a good tactic for putting Catholics on the defensive even before it was known that they were Catholic—”ummmm, uhhh, well no, I’m not sure, I’m Catholic.” Then a conversation about works righteousness or saint statues would ensue. Yeah, nice to meet you, too.
Thankfully, those days are pretty much over. We now have formerly rabid anti-Catholics apologizing and even praising the pope. Catholics and Evangelicals have both learned that we have much in common and need each other to face the secular culture with a solid front. But, where did this detente come from? I think there is a real history to be told here and a book should be written. Let me give my perceptions of 7 major developments since 1993, which I regard as the the watershed year for the renewal of the Catholic Church in the United States.
1. The Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1993. When this document came out, it was uncertain that even Catholics would read it. We should have known that something was up when the French version hit the top of the bestsellers charts in France and stayed there for months. The English version did the same in the US. Catholics were reading the Catechism, forming study groups and challenging errant professors in the classroom.
2. World Youth Day, Denver 1993. Catholic youth and youth ministers woke up. Suddenly, Catholic youth ministers realized that the youth loved the pope. And they loved him all the more because he did not talk down to them or water down the faith. He challenged them. Gone now were the pizza and a video parish youth nights. Furthermore, youth and young adults took up the challenge to evangelize. One of those youth heard the message and started a website, New Advent. Catholic youth were now becoming zealous for the Catholic faith in its fullness and were not going to be swayed by an awkward conversation that began with “Are you saved?”
3. Scott Hahn. While the Catechism is great for expounding the Catholic faith, it is not a work of apologetics itself. It is not written to expose the flaws of Evangelical theology. It is not written to defend the Church against the attacks of Evangelicals per se. It just would not let them get away with misrepresenting the Catholic faith. But Scott Hahn hit the scene at about the same time with Rome Sweet Home: Our Journey to Catholicism (Ignatius Press: San Francisco, 1993). I first heard his testimony on cassette tape in 1996. It blew my mind. Suddenly, Catholic apologetics, which is as old as the Catholic Church itself, got a leg up and there was an explosion of books, magazines and websites that effectively undercut the arguments of the 5 Solas. For the first time, there was a cadre of Catholics well enough informed to defend their faith.
4. The Internet. The Net started exploding from 1993 to 1996. I had my first account in ‘94. Compuserve was horribly basic, but by ‘96 I had AOL and the religion debates raged instantly. Catholics who had just been given the most powerful weapon in the arsenal in the war against misinterpretation of their teaching were learning to type on a forum while balancing their catechisms on their laps. Of course, online versions came out, as well. But, no Evangelical bent on getting Catholics out of the arms of the Whore of Babylon could expect to do so without himself have a copy of the Catechism, knowing it inside out and pouring over it for the errors and horrors he would surely find. Evangelical apologists were confronted with a coherent and beautiful presentation of the Catholic faith that they were ill equipped to argue against. They learned that Catholics, too, loved Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. The Catechism had arrived providentially just before the internet and had turned the tables in just a few short years. With the apologetic movement hitting at the same time, Evangelicals were also confronted with Catholics who could argue from the Bible defending their faith and demonstrating the weaknesses of Evangelical interpretations of scripture.
5. Early Church Fathers. One fruit of the Apologetics movement has been a flowering anew of Catholic interest in Patristics. This is happening at every level from armchair apologists to doctoral studies. It is suddenly all about Patristics, whereas in the 70’s-90’s the academic focus had been on Karl Rahner and Liberation Theology.
6. Evangelical Third World Experience. Evangelicals have had a field day in Latin America among the poor who are not part of the internet conversation and are distant from the study of apologetics. But, Evangelicals have learned from their experiences abroad an essential aspect of the Gospel they were missing: the Works of Mercy. Once haughty with their criticism of “works righteousness,” they have learned one cannot attend to the spiritual needs of the poor without attending to their bodily needs. Catholic have always understood this. Now, the Evangelicals are coming around. I haven’t heard an Evangelical Televangelist speak on works righteousness in many years.
7. Secularism. With the collapse of the Mainline churches as the backbone of American religion over the past thirty years (since about 1975), Catholics and Evangelicals are the only ones left standing in this country to present the Gospel. Secularism is on the rise and is ruthless. Evangelicals are now learning that only Catholicism has the intellectual resources to combat the present secular age. And, with the pope, we have a pretty effective means for communicating the faith and representing it to the world. There is nothing an Evangelical can do that will match the power of one World Youth Day.
With such an array of Providential developments, Evangelicals as well as Catholics have come to appreciate the depth and the breadth of the Catholic faith. It is far more difficult for them to honestly dismiss Catholicism as the work of Satan as once they did without qualm. There have been apologies and there have been calls for a new partnership. Let us hope these developments will bring about a new moment of understanding for the Glory of the Lord.
The scripture does not say "only", it simply says that we are judged by our works. Obviously, we know that works of love that we are judged by are impossible without faith, as much scripture indeed asserts as well.
devout Muslims score a zero percent
We don't know that. We know they don't go to Church, -- an external sign. Christ judges the hearts. If their hearts seek the union with the Catholic Church which they don't know through no fault of their own, then salvation will be found for them in the Church.
Why did Christ die if man can just do what is necessary to get into Heaven?
Man cannot "just do what is necessary" without the grace and salvific work of the Cross. Why do you put words in my mouth?
are we more like "co-adults" in comparative terms?
Depends who. Sanctification, theosis, means growing up in Christ to the point of adulthood, yes. We are meant to grow up.
44 It is sown a natural body, it shall rise a spiritual body. If there be a natural body, there is also a spiritual body, as it is written: 45 The first man Adam was made into a living soul; the last Adam into a quickening spirit. 46 Yet that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; afterwards that which is spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, earthly: the second man, from heaven, heavenly. 48 Such as is the earthly, such also are the earthly: and such as is the heavenly, such also are they that are heavenly. 49 Therefore as we have borne the image of the earthly, let us bear also the image of the heavenly.(1 Cor. 15)
9 Therefore we also, from the day that we heard it, cease not to pray for you, and to beg that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will, in all wisdom, and spiritual understanding: 10 That you may walk worthy of God, in all things pleasing; being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God:
11 Strengthened with all might, according to the power of his glory, in all patience and longsuffering with joy, 12 Giving thanks to God the Father, who hath made us worthy to be partakers of the lot of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love, 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the remission of sins; 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For in him were all things created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominations, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him and in him. 17 And he is before all, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he may hold the primacy: 19 Because in him, it hath well pleased the Father, that all fullness should dwell; 20 And through him to reconcile all things unto himself, making peace through the blood of his cross, both as to the things that are on earth, and the things that are in heaven.
21 And you, whereas you were some time alienated and enemies in mind in evil works: 22 Yet now he hath reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unspotted, and blameless before him
(Col. 1)
2 Grace to you and peace be accomplished in the knowledge of God and of Christ Jesus our Lord: 3 As all things of his divine power which appertain to life and godliness, are given us, through the knowledge of him who hath called us by his own proper glory and virtue. 4 By whom he hath given us most great and precious promises: that by these you may be made partakers of the divine nature: flying the corruption of that concupiscence which is in the world. 5 And you, employing all care, minister in your faith, virtue; and in virtue, knowledge; 6 And in knowledge, abstinence; and in abstinence, patience; and in patience, godliness; 7 And in godliness, love of brotherhood; and in love of brotherhood, charity. 8 For if these things be with you and abound, they will make you to be neither empty nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he that hath not these things with him, is blind, and groping, having forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10 Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time
(2 Peter 1)
Very good point, that last one about children and grown-ups. The evil of Calvinism is precisely in placing a barrier between man and God, whereas the Church is sent to erase the barrier.
The truths contained in Calvinism are there because they are the Catholic truths, which Calvinists have not gotten rid yet.
Nothing specifically Calvinist has any support in the scripture read in context.
Of course Christ chose first, but loving Christ back is a process of sanctification, and not a heart transplant (if the rape metaphor irks you).
Calvinism is a simple and crude theology that appeals to our dumbed-down age. The ancients would have split their sides laughing at him, but we take that charlatan seriously. No wonder our civilization is on its death bed.
If he chose everyone equally, then it was not a "choice". If Christ chose you, then he didn't choose someone else. And if you chose him because he first chose you, then your "free will" had nothing to do with it. If you chose Christ it is because he changed YOUR will. And if he can CHANGE YOUR WILL, then you don't have the "FREE WILL" to choose God. In fact the whole of scripture shows that man does not have the Free Will to choose God and that man will only Choose God if God changes their will and makes them willing.
Since God does not give everyone the will to choose him, then it is pretty obvious that if you are saved it is wholly and totally the work of God and that your free will had nothing to do with it.
Apparently you seem to equate God's unconditional love and irresistible grace as some kind of RAPE. If you hate God in your heart, and God, without any regard for your so-called "free will" removes that hateful heart and replaces it with a heart that has a yearning for him, is that RAPE?
To modify your post I originally responded to. Drive By postings like yours makes me sick. You would rather be right in your opinion than get closer to the truth. I think I will go find a fence post and have a real discussion.
It's also a resurrected form of Manicheans in that it believes that part of God's sovereignty is the ability to create evil
This puts God's first cause of everything (which is ALWAYS good) on an equal basis with evil. Thus you have a zeus like God that Kosta 50 has pointed out many times on a previous thread.
Blessed Aquinas explains this one well also.
"If anything is sovereignly evil, it must be evil by its very essence, as that is sovereignly good which is good by its essence. But evil has no essence" -Saint Aquinas
In part, I am attempting to show the differences in theology concerning the power of God. With the exception of Petronski's distinction, your side has held that God wills for all men to be saved and that God lets man determine if God gets what He wills. This describes to me an extremely weak God, that is, if God is truly omnipotent. It has God guaranteeing that He Himself fails. The Bible does not tell of this type of God.
Reading the mind of another poster is a form of "making it personal."
In the Biblical sense, YES, I absolutely do! Otherwise, I have no chance to go to Heaven in view of verses like these:
John 6:44 : "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 8:43-47 : 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? 47 He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God." (i.e. you must belong to God BEFORE you can hear.)
John 15:16 : You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit — fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.
So, if God does not choose us first, without our permission, then no one is saved. If one says that God just "chooses" everybody, then the meaning of the concept, as presented in scriptures, is destroyed.
If so, where is YOUR responsibility?
For my salvation? I have none because there is nothing I can do to earn my salvation or add to the work of Christ. Leave it to men to think they can improve upon Christ. Now, that doesn't mean I have no responsibility in another sense. Of course I was created and commanded to love and obey God, so it is my responsibility to do that. I will be judged separately on how well that turns out.
Are you a human being, or an animal?
My wife and I disagree.
A love relationship is each choosing the other. In this case, God is The Other and longs for us to choose Him.
The issue is where does our love come from? If it comes from God, then your idea of free will goes down. If the love is self-generated, then the Bible goes down.
Sending the prophets and the Old Testament scribes to tell us about His love, sending His only Son into the world to teach us directly about God and His love and ultimately to die for our sins, filling our lives with His Blessed Sacraments, graces and the guidance of the Holy Spirit, THIS is washing His hands clean of any responsibility?
Yes, because you would say that none of those things directly resulted in someone going into Heaven. The things you list are just "helps" in Catholicism. If I walk up to my buddy, who is working on his car, and I hand him a wrench, I do not take any responsibility for whether the car gets fixed or not. I see Catholicism like that. God will hand you a wrench, but the rest is all on you. That means that God will hand a wrench to anyone, but it doesn't matter to Him which are able to fix the car and which cannot. He just stands there and watches.
If you see Catholicism like that, you have a very warped view of Catholicism.
Why do you say that it doesn't matter to Him? I am quite certain that He is big enough that EVERYONE matters to Him, even those who reject Him. After all, not even a sparrow falls without His knowing. You have said something similar several times. Do you not know that Christ died even for the sake of salvation for those who killed Him? "Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do."
That is one of the merits of wearing and displaying the crucifix. It reminds us how much He loves us, each of us, even those of us who nailed him to the cross. That much.
Why? Is there a quota?
Christ knows His elect because He knows that they will Choose Him before they do. It is a process whereby Christ foreknows but man grows in Christ as a free-willed creature. Or he doesn't grow. But, in the latter case, it doesn't mean Christ did not call him or didn't love him.
If you were familiar with my postign history you would know that I have enjoyed these discussions often and have seen all the prooftexts there are. They are in two categories: either they show something that Catholicism teaches also, or they don’t really say what the Calvinist would want them to say. For example, verses that say that we are saved by grace of God alone (cf. Eph 2:8) are offered as a prooftext that we are saved by faith alone, or verses about the predestination of the elect in Romans 8 are offered as a proof of the predestination of the reprobates. Catholicism teaches the former, but not the latter in both cases. I regret that you take my response as flippant; if you feel like talking about a specific scripture passage, I’d be happy to.
Yes, something like that. His call is either answered or not by God's design; it is therefore not a failure of God when some do not answer.
Oh, well that's very different. :) If God designs that some people answer His call and some don't, that is what we call double predestination. And therefore, just as you say, there is no failure on God's part. I wouldn't have pegged you as one going for double predestination, but I'll take it. :)
No, He does not design anyone not to respond. The design is always to respond to the call, but the free will is a part of the design. The reprobates choose to be reprobates.
This confuses the mind with the heart and the role of volition.
I spent six solid years there, however. It is not correct that 90% of Filipinos are Christians. If 90% were Christians, it would be nearly impossible to spend one day in town and not see a Christian witness. Dope, sodomy, transvestism, political assassination, graft, corruption, superstition, and general moral filth are more prominent in the Philippines than Christianity.
Then Christ sure has a funny way of showing His love since He obviously didn't try hard enough to bring all men to saving faith in Him because all men do not believe.
I know He worked over-time until He pried my stubborn eyes off the world and onto Him alone. Too bad He doesn't make that extra effort for everyone, if it's true that "Christ loves everyone."
Scripture gives us the answer.
"But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." -- John 10:26
Christ tells us we believe because we first have been named as members of His flock. Faith is the result of our adoption by God. And that faith is accorded by God's predestining grace alone, and not by our works which are as filthy rags.
And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them... Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word" -- John 9-10,20"I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
And how do men "believe on" Christ?
Through the unmerited, free gift of grace from God to whom He will...
Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." -- Ephesians 2:8-10"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
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