Posted on 07/29/2008 4:39:52 PM PDT by annalex
And the reality is that most of the beliefs that Protestants condemn Catholics for are SHARED by Lutherans (many Marian beliefs, the Real Presence, the Sacraments, including Confession).
hierarchical structure with immutable 2 thousand year-old agenda
No weight or authority to this argument at all...again, relying on human, not divine authority.
absence of independent local leadership
What has this got to do with anything? non sequitor
moral absolutes that derive from natural law and therefore apply to Catholics and non-Catholics alike
Why is this a RC distinctive? Protestants believe the same thing?
monastic tradition
How does this possibly counter secularism? non sequitor
independent from the government education by celibate clergy
Another non sequitor. How could this possibly counter secularism?
conditional obedience to civil laws: a law that the Church sees as unjust does not have to be obeyed no matter how many people voted for it
And this differs from Protestant position how?
Your arguments are vacuous and full of non sequitors...you have proved absolutely nothing!
I could not be Roman Catholic on the issues listed. On the other hand, I have listed both strengths and weaknesses as I see them. That seems fair to me.
...let’s see...what do they have in common? Why, except for the U.S., atheism...
which began where... The European continent fell long ago to the scourge of liberalism that is now affecting the Protestant nations. Catholic nations fared no better, and it could be argued, were the genesis thereof...
...I would suggest that the scourge of liberalism, as you call it, is the hallmark of modernist Protestant thought, culminating in acceptance, and encouragement of homosexuality and other vices emerging from their very pulpits...and as for Catholic nations being the genesis thereof, please sir, get some sleep and some medication...
That is arguable, as many threads here attest.
Anyone can intepret; only a Catholic can explain.
Nonsense.
See #104
The texts containing the gospel are found only in the New Testament. Paul clearly spells out the gospel at the beginning of 1 Corinth 15. It’s clear.
There are no excuses.
Twelve-hundred years of which it used in crushing it's detractors unmercifully.
Ditto that. As I said on an earlier thread, when I was much younger doing things I knew were a sin, it was easier to avoid a message that told me my choices were a sin.
They existed, they just weren’t expounded by name, because what they define was simply assumed as part of the faith for the first three hundred or so years. It was only the consolidation of power under the (presumed and assumed) authority of Rome that the so-called “One True Church of Rome” arrogated and abrogated all authority, including even the interpretation of scripture, to itself.
Many people left the church because they want to contracept, they want to shack up, they want to abort. They want to choose lifestyles they know not to be good. They want to pick and choose. And why not with the plethora of non-Catholic Christian churches you can shop for whatever suits your whim.
A friend had a daughter who was living with a guy. She wanted to get married in the Catholic Church because... well just because, it was her right. The priest told her that they needed to have separate living arrangements until they were married. The couple actually left the Catholic church because the priest told them shacking up was a sin. He was more delicate in his expression. The mother called the bishop and complained that “how dare the priest make them feel bad”.
I know another woman who used to be Catholic. She left the church because the evening her mother passed away the priest was not available to go to the hospital. She was Pentecostal for a few years. Now she follows Joel Osteen.
A good friend grew up Baptist. When she married she joined the Catholic Church. She remarried after her husband passed away. This husband was never “churched” and was told by friends growing up that all Catholics are going to hell. They church shopped for a while. Now they rather like Joel, as well. To her, all Christian churches are created equal. Changing churches, denominations or associations is no big deal.
Also, no Lutherans practice private confession. We practice a general confession. But private confession to a pastor, inside a little booth, that we do not do. I believe the church, in the Lutheran Confessions, still supports the notion of private confession, but it is not considered a sacrament nor is it at all practiced by any Lutheran body that I've ever heard about. Sacraments in the Lutheran Church are believed to be only those that contain some outward sign - Baptism (the water) and the Lord's Supper (bread & wine).
Fuzzy math?
Because it is not taking the scripture in its historical, cultural and linguistic context. Ever received that circular e-mail how those who rely on the prohibition of homosexuality in the Leviticus should also stone adulterers, etc.? That is effective against literalism; it is not effective agains tthe Catholic teaching that distinguishes between ancient Mosaic law and the law of the gospel.
absence of independent local leadership
... means that the secular authority has no one answerable to it in the Catholic clergy, which responds to Rome.
natural law
Many Protestants believe in the law that they find in the Bible, but they do not believe in the natural law outside of it. This allows the civil authority to insist that the legal constructs that they invent are universal, while the Catholic teachings only apply to Catholics, and the Biblical precepts only to those who believe in the Bible.
monastic tradition
... counters secularism because it shows a moral social model independent of it and indifferent to the secular world.
education by celibate clergy
... counters secularism insofar as introduction of sexual promiscuity to the youth is an important secularist tactic.
conditional obedience to civil laws
Every Protestant denomination that supports abortion "rights", for example, does so because it is the "law of the land". Besides, given the multiplicity of the denominations it is easy to portray any ethical tenet as optional and matter of individual preference. See the part about the natural law.
Are you saying that the RCC of today is the same as that of the first centuries after the resurrection of Christ?
Holds to the same dogmas and doctrines?
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