Posted on 07/28/2008 8:19:25 AM PDT by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
It was a beautiful summer evening last Thursday as Tom and I headed from our hotel to Family Harvest Church in Tinley Park, Illinois. The Inspiring Excellence Conference was underway, and after hearing that Ray Comfort was speaking there, we decided to travel the short distance from Milwaukee to see what was going on. We were initially told by the church that Ray was speaking Friday night, but we learned after we arrived that he had already spoken, twice, on Tuesday.
We were somewhat early so we looked around at the book and DVD tables in the foyer. We saw John Avanzini’s Millionaire University DVD’s and in the bookstore, we saw more books promising us every financial and physical benefit if we will only follow the blow-dried wonder on the cover. One book on fitness featured a highly endowed blond in a tight t-shirt, flaunting her astonishing figure because she’d learned how to exercise God’s way. Interspersed among the personal enhancement books were an assortment of Ray Comfort books which looked somewhat odd in the middle of it all.
We made our way to the auditorium where the stage was lit up with colored lights. An usher gave me a dirty look so I had to put the camera away. Another usher came up to us as we were looking for seats and directed us toward the front. He grabbed my arm and looked into my eyes. “It’s warmer down closer to the FIRE!” he said and then laughed uproariously.
The service began with the gospel choir and lead singers on stage kicking things into high gear. The band got people on their feet and the assemblage raised the roof as the colored gel lights flashed. After about 35-40 minutes of this, everyone was told to sit down. The main lights had been off until this point. Suddenly, heavy metal music was cranked and the lights all came on as the screens at the side of the stage began to flash the words “INCREASE INCREASE INCREASE”. Giant balloons fell from the ceiling onto our heads—these were enormous balloons–and ushers began to throw what appeared to be money at us in the seats and into the aisles. Children and adults made a mad scramble to collect what they could. They were actually throwing the fake million dollar bill tracts from Ray Comfort. No particular explanation was given for this exercise, and the service carried on with announcements.
John Avanzini was finally introduced by Pastor Robb Thompson who also made his first appearance at this juncture. I had never actually witnessed someone in an all white suit before, and Robb Thompson cut an impressive tanned figure on stage in his white suit and dark blue shirt underneath. Little patches of matching blue adorned his shiny black shoes. Health and wealth preachers seem to favor these kinds of flashy, flamboyant outfits that you would otherwise not see except on a Carnival cruise ship lounge singer or maybe in a club act at Caesar’s Palace. John Avanzini himself strolled out in a dark pinstripe suit and patent leather shoes, looking remarkably like an aging mafia don. A diamond ring glittered on his right hand and caught the lights throughout the evening.
You can hear the opening remarks of Avanzini here. Flattery is the first salvo of these guys, and he laid it on. The message began. One of the hallmarks of false prophet preachers is the constant use of joke telling. Jeremiah 23 describes prophets who “do err by their lightness”. There was certainly plenty of that Thursday night. Avanzini spent considerable time describing the difference between snoring and purring, and he had the audience howling with laughter.
After a rambling, free-ranging talk about the worsening economy and the price of gas, he told us that he would give us all two things to help us get through perilous times. The first was a list of 7 Bible promises, as he called them, that he had printed up on a card. The mixture of truth and error was very evident here.
The list, which is seen at left, gave the following “seven anchors for these perilous times”. Note that the word prosperity as he uses it is referring to material wealth. Spiritual wealth was never mentioned that night.
1. God has already made plans for your prosperity. Jeremiah 29:11
2. Everything you will need and want has already been provided for you by your great God. 2 Peter 1:3
3. God has already given you his best so there is no need to worry about him denying you anything else. Romans 8:32
4. God wants you to live with limitless supply. Judges 18:10
5. Your wealthy place is always on the other side of the perilous times you are facing.
6. It gives God great pleasure to prosper you in good times…in bad times..at all times. Psalms 35:27
7. In good times or in bad times, God is willing to make you rich. Proverbs 10:22
On the show today, I pointed out that there is truth and error mixed here. All of those Scripture verses given do talk about the prospering of God’s people. The idea that this is always referring to physical wealth is patently absurd. Avanzini and all of his huckster compatriots only use Scripture as proof texts for their own ridiculous claims that God wants everyone wearing Brioni suits and Rolex watches.
Avanzini told a story of how his grandchildren sometimes sit and watch him count money at the table. He described his stacks of 100’s, 50’s, 20’s and so on. He mocked at how his daughter told them, “don’t ask for anything, children.” He told us that she should have been teaching them to ask for money. He again mocked how she taught the children to say, “thank you” when he would give them money. He claimed that what they should have said instead was, “Can I have some more?” Avanzini apparently believes in training children early to be greedy and ungrateful.
The next thing Avanzini said he would give us to help us through “perilous times” was a stone. He went through several Bible references where stones “talked” in the Old Testament. Here Avanzini introduces the stone idea. He strolled down the aisles, his ring winking in the lights, and held out a shiny stone for a woman to hold. Avanzini told the assembled crowd of about 650 people that these stones should be rubbed whenever people faced rising prices or higher prices at the pump. The ushers went down the aisles with buckets of shiny, smooth stones and handed them out. (No, that’s not an unhappy face on the stone, just a weird stone we ended up with. Maybe someone could sell this stone-with-a-face on ebay.)
This moved him on to the seque phase of his message. He began transitioning to his real message by telling the story of Gideon’s sacrifice as recorded in the book of Judges. Repeatedly, Avanzini described the poverty of Gideon and how his offering of a goat was such a sacrifice for someone who lived in a cave. He described how the angel of the Lord IGNITED the offering on the rock. We, who were in possession of the lucky rubbing stones, would need to ignite ours. I’ll give you a guess how that should be done.
At this point, Avanzini turned to the pastor in the white suit, sitting in the audience and asks innocently, “Do I have a few more moments?” Well, not surprisingly, the pastor agreed. It’s a good thing, because as it turns out, Avanzini had a whole new doctrinal revelation to tell us about: the doctrine of reverse entrapment. If you’ve never heard of that before, that’s because God just showed it to him right there. Reverse entrapment is when you put a gift to Avanzoni on a credit card and outsmart the lenders who are trying to get rich off your debt. When you put a gift on a credit card, I quote, “something happens in the spirit world.” Here he tells everyone how to have a credit card breakthrough. Turns out Avanzini has a way for you to get rid of your mortgage debt. All you have to do is to give him a gift the size of your house payment and God will see that your mortgage gets paid off right away. If you don’t have a house, $500 will do nicely for future debt. Avanzini assured us that it worked for him.
Perhaps the man sensed a few hostile vibes from the audience (from our row in particular) because he warned us not to let the devil keep us back from getting free from debt by putting a gift for his ministry on our credit card. The credit card “invitation” began as the keyboardist began to noodle around with some mood music. Then Avazini warned everyone again not to let the devil keep us away. The people streamed down to the stage area and wrote out their credit card numbers and house payment gifts and left them at the expensively shod feet of the speaker. While the people came down to the front to divest themselves of their money, Avanzini appropriately chose to tell an Al Capone joke. I doubt if one other person in the house recognized the irony.
Avanzini then prayed an igniting prayer over the stones everyone was clutching. Presumably, we still have to ignite our own with a credit card gift, but maybe his igniting prayer was considered the first step. The entire thing was an unspeakable tragedy. These men target the poor in particular because they are the ones desperate enough to need a “breakthrough.” That is the evil in all of this. The rich aren’t stupid enough to give away their cash to the likes of Avanzini. It’s the poor and the needy, the hurting and the ill who desperately need help who are vulnerable to these sharks.
Ray Comfort emailed me yesterday in response to my detailing of what happened that night. He spoke on Tuesday morning and Tuesday night at that same church and did not give a warning word. He spoke the Gospel, he told them how to witness to a Jehovah’s Witness, he talked about how America needs to respect the Ten Commandments, but never once did he say, “the men who follow me will want your money, and will not point you to Christ.” Ray could not do that because he would be insulting his hosts. He was warned in advance about where he was speaking and has spoken in years past at this same church. He made a choice to go ahead. Now he says he will not preach again at a prosperity conference. This is good news.
I saw their faces. A woman I’ll call Pam came up to us just before the service started, thanked us for coming to her church and told us how she was enjoying the conference. She said she had heard Ray speak and was looking forward to Jesse Duplantis the following night. “Come early,” she said. “They’ll be lining up out the doors for him!” When the Apostle Paul left the church at Ephesus for what he thought would be the last time, he said this as recorded in Acts 20.
“I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole counsel of God. Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood. I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them. Therefore be alert, remembering that for three years I did not cease night or day to admonish everyone with tears.”
–Acts 20:27-30
He warned. He loved the church. Ray turned things around in his email to me yesterday and demanded to know whether my husband and I had gotten up and in effect interrupted the service like people sometimes do at a political rally to make a point. No, Ray. My husband and I did not start shouting out because the uniformed ushers less than three feet from us would have removed us within 30 seconds, and nobody would have heard anything. You, Ray, had the microphone. You had the speaker’s platform. You had the authority and name recognition and opportunity. That’s why we were so concerned in the first place. The names of the speakers at the church were flashed on a sign out front of the church; a sign that thousands of cars see every day on Interstate 80 that runs past the church. We can’t legitimize these men, no matter how godly our motives.
Bill Gothard is scheduled to speak at the church on Sunday, July 27. His staff has also been invited to accompany him there for the special service where they are promoting his ministry. I called Bill Gothard today before the program and told him what we had seen and heard from this “church”. Gothard claimed to be personal friends with the pastor, Robb Thompson, who wants to use Gothard’s materials. I told Mr. Gothard that I was sure he would agree: character matters a great deal, but without sound doctrine, we can’t even know what good character is. Gothard agreed and claimed he would be listening to the program today. The question is is this: What will he do with what he now knows? Will he still show up? Will his staff show up? What will he do?
For too long in this country, parachurch ministries have been trying to do the job of the local church which is in meltdown. The problem is that these ministries that are often single-issue become so narrow in focus that they lose sight of what’s going on in the rest of the evangelical world. “Don’t bother me with the details, I have a ministry to run. Why should I care about the emerging church, the seeker movement, postmodernism’s influence, contemplative spirituality, etc.? I have a ministry to fund and I only want one focus.” No responsible Christian leader can afford to have this kind of mindset. It leads to people like Ray Comfort and Bill Gothard putting a stamp of approval on men like John Avanzini, Robb Thompson, Mike Murdock, and a whole lot of others by their cooperation with them. Doctrine matters, and who we endorse, tacitly or openly matters.
Yes, Mr. Avanzini, we are living in perilous times. But your lucky rubbing stone is worthless, and your seven anchors that you put on your card are worthless. The only anchor that will hold fast in the winds that are blowing is the anchor of the Lord Jesus Christ. Thank the Lord that His Word never changes, and that despite all the chaos and spiritual confusion around us, His sheep can still hear the voice of that Good Shepherd. “Fear not, little flock; it is the father’s good pleasure to give you the Kingdom.” Luke 12:32.
CD’s of the conference are available from Family Harvest Church in Tinley Park, Illinois for those who would like to hear for themselves.
I'll need to examine the evidence here...
If God wanted you to be rich, you would be rich. The idea that man is thwarting God is ridiculous. It’s almost like God is powerless without our help.
Amen. The overarching theme of the Bible is that God is sovereign and His creation is to glorify Him. To paint the Lord of heaven as if He needs ANYTHING is blasphemy.
John Avanzini himself strolled out in a dark pinstripe suit and patent leather shoes, looking remarkably like an aging mafia don.
_________________________________________
Yes, he does...
But he’s a wonderful man of god...
I’ve known him for years...
I have many of his books..
The content is just simple sense from The Bible..
God
Gotta differ with ya regarding Mr. Avanzini. I don’t know the man, but what he teaches is NOT from the Bible, much less “simple sense from the Bible”.
All I’ve seen and read over the years from and about this man tell me he’s a flim-flam man, not a godly man.
Are these notions found in your Bible?
“[The Spirit of God]...declared in the earth today what the eternal purpose of God has been through the ages...that He is duplicating Himself in the earth”
(John Avanzini, “The End Time Manifestation of the Sons of God,” Morris Cerullo World Evangelism tape).
“Another thing you may not realize is that Jesus wore designer clothes...Why do you need to know that? Because until you know that Jesus was prosperous, you won’t be either. You may have His kindness, you may have His gentleness, you may have all His other attributes, but you’ll never have His prosperity.”
(John Avanzini, Was Jesus Poor?, Believer’s Voice of Victory, January, 1996, p. 8)
“I’m usually not allowed to speak about this,” Avanzini tells the TBN audience. “God only tells me at certain times that I can... I’m going to speak the hundred-fold increase in just a few moments”
John Avanzini (November, 1990 Praise-a-Thon )
“The 100 fold is for this time were in. What would we do with the 100 fold in streets of heaven, because heavens streets are made of gold. You need the 100 fold because people need salvation, harvest time is the most expensive time on the farm, so you need abundance. God loves nice things he’s not a spin thrift but a waster.”
John Avanzini (November, 1990 Praise-a-Thon )
“I don’t know where these goofy traditions creep in at, but one of the goofiest ones is that Jesus and His disciples were poor. Now there’s no Bible to substantiate that.”
John Avanzini (”Was Jesus poor? video)
“John 19 tells us that Jesus wore designer clothes. Well, what else you gonna call it? Designer clothes - that’s blasphemy. No, that’s what we call them today. I mean, you didn’t get the stuff He wore off the rack. It wasn’t a one-size-fits-all deal. No, this was custom stuff. It was the kind of garment that kings and rich merchants wore. Kings and rich merchants wore that garment.”
John Avanzini (Believer’s Voice of Victory, TBN January 20, 1991)
Jesus wore designer clothes...
It was the kind of garment that kings and rich merchants wore. Kings and rich merchants wore that garment.”
_________________________________________
Did you try that and it did not work for you ???
Remember Jesus had an expensive coat on when he was arrested...
So “designer” with no seems, that the Roman soldiers drew lots to win it...
Whereever Jesus went people looked after him...
Mary and Martha were rich women and cooked first class meals for him and would have made clothes for him...
He stayed at their villa when He was in town...
He ate at the tables of rich men of the city...
Jesus only said that he had no house of his own, no bed that particular night....
I listened to that episode of Crosstalk. Avenzini’s presentation struck me as nothing but a sales pitch. The patter, the come-on. Oy! He should be pitching wealth through real estate schemes on an infomercial.
The content is just simple sense from The Bible.
Rub your stone? What verse is that?
They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated— of whom the world was not worthy—wandering about in deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
(John 10:12,13)
The pastor is the hired hand.
The grifter is the wolf.
-but-
Jesus is the good Shepherd!
“...I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me...”
EVERYBODY wore “designer clothes” - they were all hand made. Nothing was off the rack.
Where does the Bible say Christ was wearing an expensive coat when He was arrested? After the arrest, after the mob demanded Barabbas be released, the Roman soldiers put a scarlet rode on the Lord Jesus (Matthew 27:26ff).
We know nothing about His own garments except the cloak was without seam “woven from the top throughout.” John further records, “They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the scripture might be fulfilled, which saith, They parted my raiment among them, and for my vesture they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did.”
People always flock to the unusual - that people flocked to Jesus doesn’t indicate He was wealthy. That He had middle class or upper class disciples does not teach that His will is for all His followers to be wealthy.
Whether or not the Lord routinely had a bed to call His own has nothing to do with the heresy spouted by Avanzini - that God wants and plans for all His children to be rich.
Do you agree with this heresy?
“[The Spirit of God]...declared in the earth today what the eternal purpose of God has been through the ages...that He is duplicating Himself in the earth”
That could be from Kenny Copeland, but it’s Avanzini.
Remember the Scriptures, not the Avanzini doctrine:
“It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.”
“he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.”
“they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.”
“Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.”
Please see Post #13.
“They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the scripture might be fulfilled, which saith, They parted my raiment among them, and for my vesture they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did.”
I never did understand that one: why would Roman soldiers care if they fulfilled scripture or not?
@0 years ago I first hear John Avanzini speak...
he has given away many cars to other people for years, so I know he preaches what he practices...
Since that time I have saved up and paid cash for every vehicle I have bought...
And followed some of his other ideas on economics
His good advice never hurt me...
Did you give him contributions on your credit card? If not, why not?
I think the quotations should end after ... whose shall it be”
I don’t think they were knowingly trying to fulfill scripture, but rather, were their actions were unknowingly divinely guided.
They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated— of whom the world was not worthy—wandering about in deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
__________________________________________
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
No source...
Never mind ...that scripture is from the Faith hall of Fame in Hebrews 11:37, 38 KJV
They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented(Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. Hebrews 11:37, 38
You better inform the mormons they are not living up to The Bible..
The mormons work hard to strive towards gathering filthy lucre...
But let’s see who these people are/were...
otherwise you better go huntin’ for a rabbit skin...
Paul speaking...
Hbr 11:32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and [of] Barak, and [of] Samson, and [of] Jephthae; [of] David also, and Samuel, and [of] the prophets:
Hbr 11:33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
Hbr 11:34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
Hbr 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
Hbr 11:36 And others had trial of [cruel] mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
Hbr 11:37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
Hbr 11:38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and [in] mountains, and [in] dens and caves of the earth.
Hbr 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Hbr 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Whew... you are reprieved...
The people were living back in Bible times...
No need to give up your Mercedes-Benz and walk..
READ THE BIBLE FOR YOURSELF
Thank me...
“It’s almost like God is powerless without our help.”
Very existential...
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