Posted on 07/07/2008 10:39:05 PM PDT by Gamecock
A caller to our weekly radio program asked a question that has come up before: Are Roman Catholics saved? Let me respond to this as best I can. But I need to offer a qualifier because I think this is going to be somewhat dissatisfying for some because I am not going to say a simple "aye" or "nay." My answer is: It kind of depends. The reason I'm saying that is because of certain ambiguities.
My point is this, I think that in the area of the doctrine of salvation, Roman Catholic theology, as I understand it, is unbiblical because salvation depends on faith and works, not just faith alone. This was the specific problem Paul addressed in the book of Galatians and was the subject of the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15: Is simple faith in Jesus adequate, or must gentile followers of Christ now keep the Law as a standard of acceptance before God?
I know not all Catholics would agree that this is a fair way of putting it, but I think that most Catholics would actually say the faith/works equation is accurate. Your faith and your works are what save you. I was raised Catholic and that’s what I was taught. (For my take on the biblical relationship between faith and works, see “Faith & Works: Paul vs. James.”)
Now, I need to add this too. Many Protestants feel the same way. Many Protestants are confused on this issue, so this is not a Catholic vs. Protestant concern so much. It's just that Catholicism across the board has more of an official position that amounts this, where Protestants have a more diversity of views, some that don't even seem to be consistent with Protestantism.
But the fact that one believes Jesus is the Messiah and that He is the savior, not our own efforts, is critical. If you reject this notion, like the Jews do, then as far as I can tell from the biblical revelation, there is no hope for you. That seems to be clear. But when somebody says they believe in Jesus and He is their Savior, but somehow works are mingled in with the picture, then I can't really say to you how much faith that person is putting in Jesus and how much faith that person is putting in their own efforts to satisfy God. If a person has all their faith in their own efforts, then they are going to be judged by their own efforts. It's as simple as that. If they have their faith in Jesus, they will be judged by the merits of Jesus. Anyone judged by their own merits is going to be found wanting. Anyone who is judged by the merits of Jesus is not going to be found wanting because Jesus is not wanting.
What if you are kind of a mixture? I think most Catholics are, frankly. Many Protestants are, as well.
I reflect often on a comment that was made by a friend of mine named Dennis. He was a Roman Catholic brother in Christ that I knew when I was a brand new Christian. He asked me this: "Greg, how much faith does it take to be saved?" I said, "A mustard seed." And he said, "There you go."
And so, it seems to me, there are many Christians—Protestant and Catholic—who believe in Jesus as their savior and have a mustard seed of faith, but are confused about the role of works. I think that Jesus is still Savior in those cases.
Not Catholic. The formula is "faith-plus-works."
If you have specific information to the contrary, linking all times in the Christian era by way of some remnant containing a "pure" Christian doctrine that existed throughout all of that time without an extinction, please feel free to share at length your sources. Otherwise, you must consider that you might possibly be wrong in your assertions, and the guarantee of God's providence promised in Matthew 28 might have been preserved through avenues you currently find ...distasteful.
Don’t bother pointing these out to the Catholic bashers they fall on deaf ears, let them roll in the dirt with each other.
Matt 20:25 But Jesus called them to Himself and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those who are great exercise authority over them. 26 Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant. 27 And whoever desires to be first among you, let him be your slave-- 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."
Just do a search in the New Testament how many 'works' the Lord and His disciples did. Then, Do a search on "follow me". Works we do are AS IF from ourselves, but acknowledged they are from the Lord. It's application of faith to your life.
What's that saying? "I'd rather be a servant in heaven than reign in hell?"
How do you know when you have done enough “works” for salvation?
But, their Bibles seem to have nothing before the Book of Acts! :-)
Others have done a decent enough job on that in the past hereon.
No amount of proof influences addictive idolatrous devotion to a certain bureaucratic magicsterical committee in the least.
It's not remotely worth the bother.
How do you know how much prayer, meditation or Bible study is sufficient?
Think of works as being of service (charitable) to your church, country, vocation, neighbor, etc. The question is how, not how much.
Additionally, for the sake of full disclosure, I was raised Catholic.
Naw.
You can read the thousands of pages on such threads and in a few months or years, you might find it.
Or, others can oblige.
It’s really not worth my bother.
It is amazing what some people will want to associate with their own beliefs in a disjointed effort to bypass the Catholic Church through the present Christian Era. But, in order to do that, the rather unsavory characters one would be forced to use to stitch together some sort of continuum in this vein should give one much pause, indeed! All the other attempts you are trying to ride the coattails of have failed miserably. If you have new information, please share it. You are hardly shy about writing (or cutting and pasting) huge tomes to the FR Religion Forum when it suits you! I'm not even asking for that. Just an outline credibly connecting a group or groups with identical doctrinal beliefs throughout 2000 years of Christian history.
Remember, you are the one who brought this Remnant up. Don't just talk the talk.
That’s rich.
Enough irony to build another USS RONALD REAGAN yet again! LOL.
Ah...I find it entertaining when ya’ll argue about who gets to speak for God. Keep up the good work.
I try to avoid
telling
GOD
who He has to allow to speak for
HIM.
He’s obviously always done a good job of making those decisions.
Are they saved if they don’t believe in the term saved? For them salvation is an analog function on which one never knows where he stands. They consider it a sin to consider yourself saved from Hell and secure in faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
No, you don't. You're perfectly willing to let this Remnant that you speak about speak for Him. All the more reason to document its existence, then!
If your assertion that God doesn't need to deputize others to speak for Him held water, then we would all believe the exact same things, 100%, concerning His teaching. That we don't clearly indicates that the Holy Spirit does not normally impose harmony of belief at the level of the individual Christian. There is a proper interpretive authority among His believers, working through His agency and inspiration. You know where to find it, you simply refuse to do so. Your loss.
Not sure about Catholics, but I consider it arrogant to assume what my disposition is the next life is. The entire theology of 'once saved, always saved' assumes you know every obstacle you will face in your lifetime. Total lack of humility.
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