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Catholics & Salvation; And the answer is: Maybe.
Stand To Reason ^ | Gregory Koukl

Posted on 07/07/2008 10:39:05 PM PDT by Gamecock

A caller to our weekly radio program asked a question that has come up before: Are Roman Catholics saved? Let me respond to this as best I can. But I need to offer a qualifier because I think this is going to be somewhat dissatisfying for some because I am not going to say a simple "aye" or "nay." My answer is: It kind of depends. The reason I'm saying that is because of certain ambiguities.

My point is this, I think that in the area of the doctrine of salvation, Roman Catholic theology, as I understand it, is unbiblical because salvation depends on faith and works, not just faith alone. This was the specific problem Paul addressed in the book of Galatians and was the subject of the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15: Is simple faith in Jesus adequate, or must gentile followers of Christ now keep the Law as a standard of acceptance before God?

I know not all Catholics would agree that this is a fair way of putting it, but I think that most Catholics would actually say the faith/works equation is accurate. Your faith and your works are what save you. I was raised Catholic and that’s what I was taught. (For my take on the biblical relationship between faith and works, see “Faith & Works: Paul vs. James.”)

Now, I need to add this too. Many Protestants feel the same way. Many Protestants are confused on this issue, so this is not a Catholic vs. Protestant concern so much. It's just that Catholicism across the board has more of an official position that amounts this, where Protestants have a more diversity of views, some that don't even seem to be consistent with Protestantism.

But the fact that one believes Jesus is the Messiah and that He is the savior, not our own efforts, is critical. If you reject this notion, like the Jews do, then as far as I can tell from the biblical revelation, there is no hope for you. That seems to be clear. But when somebody says they believe in Jesus and He is their Savior, but somehow works are mingled in with the picture, then I can't really say to you how much faith that person is putting in Jesus and how much faith that person is putting in their own efforts to satisfy God. If a person has all their faith in their own efforts, then they are going to be judged by their own efforts. It's as simple as that. If they have their faith in Jesus, they will be judged by the merits of Jesus. Anyone judged by their own merits is going to be found wanting. Anyone who is judged by the merits of Jesus is not going to be found wanting because Jesus is not wanting.

What if you are kind of a mixture? I think most Catholics are, frankly. Many Protestants are, as well.

I reflect often on a comment that was made by a friend of mine named Dennis. He was a Roman Catholic brother in Christ that I knew when I was a brand new Christian. He asked me this: "Greg, how much faith does it take to be saved?" I said, "A mustard seed." And he said, "There you go."

And so, it seems to me, there are many Christians—Protestant and Catholic—who believe in Jesus as their savior and have a mustard seed of faith, but are confused about the role of works. I think that Jesus is still Savior in those cases.


TOPICS: Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; Mainline Protestant; Theology
KEYWORDS: salvation
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To: Forest Keeper

I hope folks aren’t holding their breaths

waiting

for . . . some of the more intense Vaticons hereon to be equally honest.


3,001 posted on 08/15/2008 1:18:43 PM PDT by Quix (key QUOTES POLS 1900 ON #76 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2031425/posts?page=77#77)
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To: Alamo-Girl; betty boop

It is possible to know too much of what is or isn’t so..


3,002 posted on 08/15/2008 2:07:47 PM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole....)
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To: Quix

Vaticons!?... LoL..


3,003 posted on 08/15/2008 2:08:52 PM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole....)
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To: Forest Keeper; MarkBsnr; Dr. Eckleburg; OLD REGGIE; Gamecock; Alex Murphy; Quix; ...
I thought the distinction you were trying to make was that if it is not in the Gospels, then it is of lesser validity or lesser truth.

Such distinction can be made, when for instance direct words of Christ are compared with someone else's speech, but I was not making it.

The word of God through Paul and the other Apostles is all written down.

Some of it is written down. Certainly not all of it: Christ taught the Apostles for three years and one can read the four gospels in three hours, and the Epistles in another hour. Besides, the letters of Paul, especially, do not have the form of a recorded revelation: they address specific problems, refer to teaching done by him orally, make trivial references to his personal belongings, -- they are not written as a systematic re-telling of a revelation. And that is my point: that the Holy Scripture is but a part of the body of thought and fact that Christ communicated to the Apostles.

Does anyone correct the behavior of the Pope today, and be right?

Of course. For example, the previous pope was criticized for his not apologizing to the sex abuse victims, and I think, rightly so. Further, people criticize the Pope on dioctrinal grounds as well and that des not make them un-Catholic. For example, much of the criticism of the Vatican II is valid or at least permissible for a Catholic to make.

3,004 posted on 08/15/2008 2:11:48 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Quix
UNMITIGATED BALDERDASH.

Shhh.

3,005 posted on 08/15/2008 2:12:30 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: hosepipe
The christian life must be lived not learned

You can make the same remark to someone who supports Sola Scriptura.

3,006 posted on 08/15/2008 2:14:15 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Forest Keeper; Gamecock; wmfights; Dr. Eckleburg; Alex Murphy; Quix; P-Marlowe
how does a conservative determine the intent of a Constitutional provision? He looks to the writings of the drafters

Exactly: the Federalist papers, the letters, etc., which explain the original intent of the constitutional clauses. We refer to the Fathers of the Chruch in the same way: they explain the intended meaning of the scripture.

Nothing in the later pronouncements, papal and consiliar, may contradict the earlier doctrine. One cannot get more conservative than that.

3,007 posted on 08/15/2008 2:18:42 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; OLD REGGIE; annalex; wmfights; Forest Keeper; Gamecock; Alex Murphy; Quix; ...
890... To fulfill this service, Christ endowed the Church's shepherds with the charism of infallibility in matters of faith and morals.

Infallibility!?!?! We've been told countless time that the only time the pope in infallible is when he speaks ex cathedra and now we see that Catholic believe that there are exceptions to the ex cathedra rule.

The more you read about the doctrine of the Roman Catholic church, the more convoluted it becomes. (Besides, we can all see how wrong 890 really is in regards to morals.)

3,008 posted on 08/15/2008 2:22:28 PM PDT by Gamecock (The truth of Christianity does not hinge on my personal experience.)
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To: Forest Keeper; Lord_Calvinus

As Forest Keeper knows, all my arguments with him are from scripture. Unless the teachings of the Church are misrepresented or history is misrepresented, in which case I would naturally refer to the authority of the Church or to the historical facts. When I explain the error of Protestantism to a Protestant I would do it from scripture only, since that is the only way to have a productive discussion with a Protestant. It is not hard to do: your entire theology is drawn from a few passages from St. Paul taken out of context and contradicts the entire scripture read in context.


3,009 posted on 08/15/2008 2:23:23 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: wmfights; Dr. Eckleburg; Forest Keeper; OLD REGGIE; Gamecock; Alex Murphy; Quix
Thanks be to God!

The Catohlic Church teaches that the Scirpture is God breathed, holy and inerrant. Why does it excite you so? This does not make the Sola Scriptura any less of a silly superstition that it is.

Why would the opinions of these theologians have any greater weight than the opinions of theologians who came even later?

Because they were nearer to the source of the teachings of Christ, both written down and not.

3,010 posted on 08/15/2008 2:27:00 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; wmfights; Forest Keeper; OLD REGGIE; Gamecock; Alex Murphy; Quix; Marysecretary; ...
The New Testament is brimming with the declared truth that salvation has been accomplished by Christ on behalf of His flock

No it does not. Characteristically, you did not cite any. What Christ accomplished ont he Cross was the redemption of man. The individual salvation is still to be worked out with fear and trembling (Phil 2:12) by every one.

3,011 posted on 08/15/2008 2:30:27 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; OLD REGGIE; wmfights; Forest Keeper; Gamecock; Alex Murphy; Quix; Marysecretary; ...
the magisterium has attempted to supplant the Holy Spirit.

No, merely to listen to Him, successfully.

3,012 posted on 08/15/2008 2:32:55 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex

***When I explain the error of Protestantism to a Protestant I would do it from scripture only, since that is the only way to have a productive discussion with a Protestant.***

Imagine that: the word of God being the final arbiter between men. Sadly, it is a concept that the church in Rome has yet to learn, even if her members pretend Sola Scriptura for the sake of discussions with Protestants.


3,013 posted on 08/15/2008 2:37:06 PM PDT by Lord_Calvinus
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To: Forest Keeper; Dr. Eckleburg; wmfights; Gamecock; Alex Murphy; Quix; Marysecretary
And he is absolutely right that no one can read the Bible for himself and arrive at Catholic theology.

Father Matthias Premm did not say that, and in fact the opposite is true. However, reading comprehension is a good thing, especially if one were to read the Bible all by himself. Not being personal... not personal...

3,014 posted on 08/15/2008 2:37:11 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex
[ The christian life must be lived not learned / You can make the same remark to someone who supports Sola Scriptura. ]

To the contrary.. thats what Sola Scriptura teaches..
Its true that Sola Scriptura causes some to worship the Bible as a Talisman.. as some worship the church or other christians as talismans or totems.. with amulets..

It takes the Holy Spirit to even grasp deep biblical truths..
Without the Holy Spirit the orthodox or "reformed" go into the ditch..
And see the flesh as an extension of the spirit/Spirit..

3,015 posted on 08/15/2008 2:40:48 PM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole....)
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To: annalex
The Catohlic Church teaches that the Scirpture is God breathed, holy and inerrant. Why does it excite you so?

Because in the process of acknowleding this truth you also acknowledged that oral transmission is not as accurate. It is very straightforward to see that oral transmission not being of like accuracy would not be held in as high esteem. Thus, in your honesty you acknowledged that one of the legs of your three legged stool "tradition" is not equal to that of Scripture. IOW, you stool is "falling over".

WM: Why would the opinions of these theologians have any greater weight than the opinions of theologians who came even later?

An: Because they were nearer to the source of the teachings of Christ, both written down and not.

It may not have occurred to you, but proximity does not guarantee insight or understanding. A good example would be the creation of a hierarchy, or the mistaken belief in transubstantiation.

Another way to look at the issue of proximity would be in the work place. I might interview two different people for a position. The first candidate having been with us for 20 years and the second for just 5 years. The first candidate may have stayed stuck in his 1st year throughout his 20 years, never growing or maturing, The 2nd candidate may have had 5 years of different experience and because of it grown and matured. Whom do you hire for the position?

If these early theologians only have proximity going for them then why should they be taken anymore seriously than those who came later?

3,016 posted on 08/15/2008 2:42:54 PM PDT by wmfights (Believe - THE GOSPEL - and be saved)
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To: Lord_Calvinus
Follow my posts, and you will get plenty of it.

Consider for example, the head article.

But when somebody says they believe in Jesus and He is their Savior, but somehow works are mingled in with the picture, then I can't really say to you how much faith that person is putting in Jesus and how much faith that person is putting in their own efforts to satisfy God.

What does this juvenile psychoanalysis have to do with scripture? Answer: nothing. Somebody sucked on his finger and decided that by doing works Christ commanded we have less faith. Huh? This kind of counterscriptural nonsense is the entirety of Protestantism. It is laughable.

3,017 posted on 08/15/2008 2:44:45 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: hosepipe

OK. I can go along with that. This is why I listen to the Magisterium.


3,018 posted on 08/15/2008 2:45:58 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: wmfights
stool is "falling over".

The teachings of the fathers of the Church are adequately recorded and available to us. We have no problem accessing the Holy Tradition today. The unreliability of the oral transmission has been overcome. Imagine that.

proximity does not guarantee insight or understanding

Well, no, it does not. For example, Judas was among the Apostles, and the Eleven themselves often showed lack of understanding. The Church did a lot of work to harmonize and sort out the memories of Jesus before it could arrive at the complete and accurate picture of the Christian Faith. However, by the time the New Testament got sorted out, the Deposit of Faith was free from aberration. At least, if you believe in the inerrancy of the Scripture like I do, you have to believe that.

3,019 posted on 08/15/2008 2:53:08 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex; Alex Murphy; blue-duncan; BnBlFlag; Dr. Eckleburg; ears_to_hear; Forest Keeper; ...
to listen to Him, successfully.

.

.

.

successfully?


3,020 posted on 08/15/2008 3:09:39 PM PDT by Quix (key QUOTES POLS 1900 ON #76 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2031425/posts?page=77#77)
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