Posted on 07/07/2008 10:39:05 PM PDT by Gamecock
A caller to our weekly radio program asked a question that has come up before: Are Roman Catholics saved? Let me respond to this as best I can. But I need to offer a qualifier because I think this is going to be somewhat dissatisfying for some because I am not going to say a simple "aye" or "nay." My answer is: It kind of depends. The reason I'm saying that is because of certain ambiguities.
My point is this, I think that in the area of the doctrine of salvation, Roman Catholic theology, as I understand it, is unbiblical because salvation depends on faith and works, not just faith alone. This was the specific problem Paul addressed in the book of Galatians and was the subject of the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15: Is simple faith in Jesus adequate, or must gentile followers of Christ now keep the Law as a standard of acceptance before God?
I know not all Catholics would agree that this is a fair way of putting it, but I think that most Catholics would actually say the faith/works equation is accurate. Your faith and your works are what save you. I was raised Catholic and that’s what I was taught. (For my take on the biblical relationship between faith and works, see “Faith & Works: Paul vs. James.”)
Now, I need to add this too. Many Protestants feel the same way. Many Protestants are confused on this issue, so this is not a Catholic vs. Protestant concern so much. It's just that Catholicism across the board has more of an official position that amounts this, where Protestants have a more diversity of views, some that don't even seem to be consistent with Protestantism.
But the fact that one believes Jesus is the Messiah and that He is the savior, not our own efforts, is critical. If you reject this notion, like the Jews do, then as far as I can tell from the biblical revelation, there is no hope for you. That seems to be clear. But when somebody says they believe in Jesus and He is their Savior, but somehow works are mingled in with the picture, then I can't really say to you how much faith that person is putting in Jesus and how much faith that person is putting in their own efforts to satisfy God. If a person has all their faith in their own efforts, then they are going to be judged by their own efforts. It's as simple as that. If they have their faith in Jesus, they will be judged by the merits of Jesus. Anyone judged by their own merits is going to be found wanting. Anyone who is judged by the merits of Jesus is not going to be found wanting because Jesus is not wanting.
What if you are kind of a mixture? I think most Catholics are, frankly. Many Protestants are, as well.
I reflect often on a comment that was made by a friend of mine named Dennis. He was a Roman Catholic brother in Christ that I knew when I was a brand new Christian. He asked me this: "Greg, how much faith does it take to be saved?" I said, "A mustard seed." And he said, "There you go."
And so, it seems to me, there are many Christians—Protestant and Catholic—who believe in Jesus as their savior and have a mustard seed of faith, but are confused about the role of works. I think that Jesus is still Savior in those cases.
The same way anyone learns anything true about God -- by the merciful, free gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit...
"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." -- John 14:26
"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." -- Philippians 2:13
How do we know Paul was correct? By the same manner, comparing Paul's words with the rest of Scripture, as we are led by the Holy Spirit. When we read Paul and realize the good fruit that comes with following God's word through Paul, our faith is confirmed, exactly as God has ordained.
Pray without ceasing. In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you. Quench not the Spirit. Despise not prophesyings. Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Abstain from all appearance of evil. And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. Brethren, pray for us. Greet all the brethren with an holy kiss. I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren." -- 1 Thessalonians 5:16-27"Rejoice evermore.
You got one part right: the commandment to “do it in commemoration of Me” cannot apply to eating, and so it applies to doing what Christ is doing, giving out the consecrated bread and wine.
The priests of the Catholic Church can forgive sins because they are ordained by their bishops, the bishops are successors of the Apostles, and the apostles were told to do so by Jesus Christ who is God. So, when a priest absolves a sin, it is Christ Who forgives it as well.
Very well. Did that gift indwell the eleven Apostles prior to any of the New Testament was written?
Truly, the "vital" teacher is God Himself:
AMEN! Great scripture.
At the same time, God has told us He communicates His will to us and for us by His holy word, made comprehensible by the Holy Spirit.
Whatever the Apostles may or may not have said before they wrote the Scriptures does not matter in the least. It's all conjecture. What we know is true is the inspired, written word of God.
And for those who have been graced with faith, that is more than enough.
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God" -- Ephesians 6:17
Amen, Dr. E. It kinda boggles my mind sometimes.
FK: I don’t see how. The only premises needed are that God has a will and is omnipotent. I wouldn’t expect you to disagree with either of those. :)***
Mark: It also assumes that God is a micromanager robot programmer.
God can't be a robot programmer because He gave us a will. He does micromanage those things He cares about though. That should be expected since He called His creation good. Wouldn't you also take care of what you created?
Maybe the God of Scripture isn’t saddled with human insecurities about control.
The extent to which God gives up His control is the same extent to which He is irresponsible, immoral, and does not care about us. This is what we see in the real world under Catholic theology. Most choose against God and He chooses to do nothing to effectually prevent it, even though He has the full power, authority, and right to do so. He doesn't care. Once again you have God choosing for man's will to supersede His own will. You have to say that it is more important to God that man have the free will you crave than is the eternal destiny of the very ones you say He loves. That would be completely irresponsible of a loving God.
He is the Creator; there is little evidence that He is a micromanager and there is a lot of evidence that He has endowed us with free will. Immense plan?
Does God not trifle with small things in your life? Have you never experienced a "small" miracle? I sure have and give the glory to God. And yes, one would expect an immense plan from an immense God.
God cannot be immoral.
I agree, but that would mean that the Catholic idea of free will would have to fall. :) The Catholic idea of free will is akin to a parent allowing a mentally handicapped child to play alone in the front yard by a busy street. It would be immoral.
The words of Jesus make it plain that He has bestowed all the gifts that it takes for us.
For you and me (us believers), yes. Jesus prayed for us, but He did not pray for the world.
It matters if you choose to question whether the Sacred Deposit of Faith preceded the Scripture, which is but an expression of it. Nor is it conjectural: the writings of the Church fathers who discussed the formation of the New Testament Canon are available to us.
Every single one of St. Paul’s doctrines must have come from the eleven Apostles, since Paul’s encounter with the risen Christ is described in full and did not contain any teaching.
Paul was specifically chosen by Jesus. Are you aware of anyone else beyond the age of the Apostles chosen in this way?
What does this mysterious "Deposit Of Faith" have to do with Paul?
Perhaps you should explain this "Deposit Of Faith" you speak of. Especially, explain how it trumps Scripture.
lol. Do you not see how this very sentence hands over the sovereignty of the one Creator to the creation?
Paul corrected Peter; not the other way around.
I’ll try to help. We know Jesus taught the Eleven. Who taught St. Paul? I know he was chosen by Jesus. But who taught St. Paul what Jesus taught?
No, it doesn't.
UNMITIGATED BALDERDASH.
What was Paul doing 3 years in the wilderness? Playing friendly with horned toads and counting spines on cactus?
Who does Paul declare taught him?
My reading of Scripture at least hints if not clearly indicates that Paul had a LOT better company in the wilderness than toads and lizards.
He certainly made it clear he didn't learn Biblical truths from the rest of the disciples.
I thought Vatican reps read Scripture . . . . well . . . at least some of them . . . according to them.
Yes, excellent point, Dr. E. If all we need to remember is that God is outside of time, then the whole history of the Bible becomes malleable and subject to revision by tradition. Inconvenient truths don't matter because God is outside of time.
And that "foreknowledge" of all things is absolute because it has been determined by His will and purpose in creating life in the first place.
AMEN! Warfield couldn't have said it better himself. :)
The same God who taught the disciples taught Paul 2,000 years ago and continues to teach us today. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one.
From this Catholic website, it looks like these Catholics agree with that statement...
Today the Holy Spirit fulfills that role in us, too. The Spirit is "the interior Master of Christian prayer", our guide and instructor. We learn to pray from the Spirit's inspiration..."..."The Spirit helps us in our weakness," St.Paul says, "for we do not know how to pray as we ought..." (Romans 8, 26)
Perhaps some Catholics are catching on.
Jesus did:
Gal 1:11-12 : 11 I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.
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