Posted on 07/07/2008 10:39:05 PM PDT by Gamecock
A caller to our weekly radio program asked a question that has come up before: Are Roman Catholics saved? Let me respond to this as best I can. But I need to offer a qualifier because I think this is going to be somewhat dissatisfying for some because I am not going to say a simple "aye" or "nay." My answer is: It kind of depends. The reason I'm saying that is because of certain ambiguities.
My point is this, I think that in the area of the doctrine of salvation, Roman Catholic theology, as I understand it, is unbiblical because salvation depends on faith and works, not just faith alone. This was the specific problem Paul addressed in the book of Galatians and was the subject of the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15: Is simple faith in Jesus adequate, or must gentile followers of Christ now keep the Law as a standard of acceptance before God?
I know not all Catholics would agree that this is a fair way of putting it, but I think that most Catholics would actually say the faith/works equation is accurate. Your faith and your works are what save you. I was raised Catholic and that’s what I was taught. (For my take on the biblical relationship between faith and works, see “Faith & Works: Paul vs. James.”)
Now, I need to add this too. Many Protestants feel the same way. Many Protestants are confused on this issue, so this is not a Catholic vs. Protestant concern so much. It's just that Catholicism across the board has more of an official position that amounts this, where Protestants have a more diversity of views, some that don't even seem to be consistent with Protestantism.
But the fact that one believes Jesus is the Messiah and that He is the savior, not our own efforts, is critical. If you reject this notion, like the Jews do, then as far as I can tell from the biblical revelation, there is no hope for you. That seems to be clear. But when somebody says they believe in Jesus and He is their Savior, but somehow works are mingled in with the picture, then I can't really say to you how much faith that person is putting in Jesus and how much faith that person is putting in their own efforts to satisfy God. If a person has all their faith in their own efforts, then they are going to be judged by their own efforts. It's as simple as that. If they have their faith in Jesus, they will be judged by the merits of Jesus. Anyone judged by their own merits is going to be found wanting. Anyone who is judged by the merits of Jesus is not going to be found wanting because Jesus is not wanting.
What if you are kind of a mixture? I think most Catholics are, frankly. Many Protestants are, as well.
I reflect often on a comment that was made by a friend of mine named Dennis. He was a Roman Catholic brother in Christ that I knew when I was a brand new Christian. He asked me this: "Greg, how much faith does it take to be saved?" I said, "A mustard seed." And he said, "There you go."
And so, it seems to me, there are many Christians—Protestant and Catholic—who believe in Jesus as their savior and have a mustard seed of faith, but are confused about the role of works. I think that Jesus is still Savior in those cases.
We are not forgiven of post-salvation sin until that sin is confessed, upon turning in back to God through faith in Christ. Post-salvation sin is forgiven per 1stJohn1:9, but the consequences of those post-salvation sins upon our thinking processes still have effect. Doctrines of degeneracy and backsliding apply here.
We continue to work out our salvation after we receive a regenerated human spirit, i.e. eternal salvation.
Eternal salvation doesn't mean temporary salvation until you sin, then you have no more salvation. Nor is it proper to declare we no longer sin after salvation, for that would make us liars.
If we are guilty of one sin we are guilty of the breaking the entire Law in His eyes.
One of my favorite verses is John 3:17, because it doesn't begin with 'except'.
Hey how about that, my Bible doesn’t have any of those things in it either!
Then you were right to put quotations around "accepts Christ". :) The promise does not mean anyone who mouths the words. That would be ridiculous. --- He was never saved because the scripture provides that this scenario does not happen. It would constitute God losing one of His sheep. Can't break the rules. It's not so much of an "out" as it is a conformity to the truth of the scriptures. I start with the premise that God's Holy word IS true.
Very well put Forest.
Sandy does bring up a great question. Evidently those living in the early church had the same concern, “what about this guy who professed faith, and is no longer with us?”
The answer is clearly given in Scripture:
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
Fact is, if they leave and never return they never were a Christian, period.
Which sins exactly did Christ’s atoning work on the Cross prove to be insufficient in redeeming? Since God is omniscient and knows exactly all future sins we shall commit, which would be more heinous, a sin of judging a criminal as not having eternal life or the criminal act itself?
REALLY? DO you or your Church believe that any one of us can simply choose to follow the Commandments perfectly and go to Heaven that way? The Bible says NO WAY:
James 2:10 : For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.
John 14:6 : 6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Although it is Biblically true that one who lived a sinless life would be worthy of Heaven, Jesus discounts that possibility here BECAUSE He KNOWS it is not possible (except for Him). Paul tells us that we are under grace, NOT the Law.
I'm looking for a local Church to receive sacraments at because our church is too far away at these gas prices.
We happen to be very blessed in that department. Our church is a twelve minute walk from the house. I wish you God's blessings in your search.
1John 2:19 does not refer to those who were anointed by God the Holy Spirit and then go on to sin prior to their first death. It specifically is addressing an audience of believers who have had antichrists among them, who left them to explicitly declare they disagreed with the Gospel. John is reassuring them that they were not actually saved prior to their departure.
The correct answer to sandy’s question is that eternal life is eternal. Once anointed by God the Holy Spirit, that believer has eternal life. Eternal life is not based upon morality, it is based upon accepting Christ alone in faith alone.
Anything added to that faith makes the salvation a works based salvation which is not the Christian way of life.
The more appropriate case is where the believer has been saved, then falls out of fellowship. Back to 1st John:
(1Jn 1:7) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
(1Jn 1:8) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
(1Jn 1:9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
(1Jn 1:10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
See my post on the other thread where I describe 'belief' and why it's important: Faith & Works: Paul vs. James
A few years ago, our church offered an online course on the commandments and their spiritual meaning: Rise Above It
We don't have our own list of extra-Biblical sins such as drinking, smoking, seven deadly sins or anything like that. Just the commandments.
***extra-Biblical sins such as drinking, smoking, seven deadly sins or anything like that***
Nor do the Reformed.
We realize that we can’t meet what the Bible demands, so why make up extras?
Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:
Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of interest.
Again, I like my doctrine where it is laid out plainly what is expected of me.
Let’s stick to the subject.
Grieving the Holy Spirit is discernible from blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
Any work we do independent of Him as believers shall be tested by fire and burned up prior to the bema seat.
Again, the issue of eternal assurance and eternal security is not compromised by post salvation sin nor does it necessitate the believer who sins to be relabeled as an unbeliever. Such is one of the most unloving attitutdes towards our brethren and not the same love with which Christ has loved us.
There do exist believers who are legalists, who confuse morality with the Christian way of life, and then seek their views to be affirmed by others so their personal constructs of His Plan appear true to themselves in their environment. Such is the course of approbation lust. Such backslidden believers attempt to influence other believers away from faith alone in Christ alone into a worldly church system as a countrfeit to His Plan. Such scarred souls, if left unchecked, don’t change the Church, but they do leave many a crown on the table which had been predestined for them had they remained in fellowship with Christ.
Of course faith is a gift from God! Everything we have and are is a gift from God.
You won’t find me impinging in any way on God’s sovereignty.
Yesterday, you said Jesus wasn't being straightforward. Today, you are saying Jesus 'discounts'. Sorry, what the Lord said Himself trumps Paul each and every time.
How do you explain these verses?
Rev 22:12 And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his workFrom the last chapter in the Bible.Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.
Matthew 12:31 Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
Would that be a commandment that we are to be expected to keep?
First of all, that parable assumes conformity in action--not just belief--to Christ. Sheep don't just have abstract faith in their shepherd, they physically, literally, follow where their shepherd leads: "My sheep hear my voice, I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish."
These sheep--sheep who follow--you are correct, will not be lost and cannot be lost.
But this idea that the sheep's will and actions have nothing to do with the process--that's plain nonsense and repugnant to the words of the Gospel.
First, there is the parable of the sower. The person you are talking about--the person who accepts Christ only shallowly--are the seeds on rocky ground without root. But there is another group. There are the ones who accept the Word, put down a root, but are choked by the cares of the world. These folks do not accept shallowly. They accept deeply and grow. But because they allow other things to choke them out, they do not produce fruit.
And there are the plain words of Christ: ”Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." and St. Peter: "give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall" and St. Paul: "But I keep under my body, and bring {it} into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.”
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