Catholics & Salvation; And the answer is: Maybe.

Stand To Reason ^ | Gregory Koukl

[Gamecock]

A caller to our weekly radio program asked a question that has come up before: Are Roman Catholics saved? Let me respond to this as best I can. But I need to offer a qualifier because I think this is going to be somewhat dissatisfying for some because I am not going to say a simple "aye" or "nay." My answer is: It kind of depends. The reason I'm saying that is because of certain ambiguities.

My point is this, I think that in the area of the doctrine of salvation, Roman Catholic theology, as I understand it, is unbiblical because salvation depends on faith and works, not just faith alone. This was the specific problem Paul addressed in the book of Galatians and was the subject of the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15: Is simple faith in Jesus adequate, or must gentile followers of Christ now keep the Law as a standard of acceptance before God?

I know not all Catholics would agree that this is a fair way of putting it, but I think that most Catholics would actually say the faith/works equation is accurate. Your faith and your works are what save you. I was raised Catholic and that’s what I was taught. (For my take on the biblical relationship between faith and works, see “Faith & Works: Paul vs. James.”)

Now, I need to add this too. Many Protestants feel the same way. Many Protestants are confused on this issue, so this is not a Catholic vs. Protestant concern so much. It's just that Catholicism across the board has more of an official position that amounts this, where Protestants have a more diversity of views, some that don't even seem to be consistent with Protestantism.

But the fact that one believes Jesus is the Messiah and that He is the savior, not our own efforts, is critical. If you reject this notion, like the Jews do, then as far as I can tell from the biblical revelation, there is no hope for you. That seems to be clear. But when somebody says they believe in Jesus and He is their Savior, but somehow works are mingled in with the picture, then I can't really say to you how much faith that person is putting in Jesus and how much faith that person is putting in their own efforts to satisfy God. If a person has all their faith in their own efforts, then they are going to be judged by their own efforts. It's as simple as that. If they have their faith in Jesus, they will be judged by the merits of Jesus. Anyone judged by their own merits is going to be found wanting. Anyone who is judged by the merits of Jesus is not going to be found wanting because Jesus is not wanting.

What if you are kind of a mixture? I think most Catholics are, frankly. Many Protestants are, as well.

I reflect often on a comment that was made by a friend of mine named Dennis. He was a Roman Catholic brother in Christ that I knew when I was a brand new Christian. He asked me this: "Greg, how much faith does it take to be saved?" I said, "A mustard seed." And he said, "There you go."

And so, it seems to me, there are many Christians—Protestant and Catholic—who believe in Jesus as their savior and have a mustard seed of faith, but are confused about the role of works. I think that Jesus is still Savior in those cases.

[andysandmikesmom]

My husbands Sicilian grandparents,were Catholic, and had four children that they raised as Catholics...all four of their children married non-Catholics, much to the chagrin, of their mother...

My husband was also raised by these same grandparents....so then the grandmother had higher hopes for her grandson,(who wound up being my hubby)....she hoped he would find a nice Catholic girl to marry...

Alas, when I met the old grandmother, and she knew that her beloved first grandchild and I were going to get married, all she could say, which I learned through translation, was “Well, she’s not a Catholic, but she’s pretty”.....

[roamer_1]

Sorry for my being confused, but were you a member of an OPC church? And are you now a member of a PCA church? Or were you not a member of these churches because they held to infant baptism?

No, ONE church. IT was OPC, now is, or soon will be PCA. I attend, but I am not a member, because I cannot agree with the doctrinal statement in good conscience.

[andysandmikesmom]

Yes, the hubby’s grandmother was a very sweet little old lady...whenever we would go over and visit, she would get all excited and go into the kitchen, get out her silver tray, with special little wine glasses and then a bottle of some sort of alcoholic drink, some sort of sweet, thick, licorice tasting drink, and she would serve everybody...it was really gruesome stuff to me, to get down, but we drank it down anyway, to please her...

She went to Mass every single day, at the Catholic Church just a few blocks from her home...then, in her 80’s she fell and broke her hip, and her days of walking to Mass were over...she had to go with live her daughter...but they did take her Mass on Sundays...

What surprised me was her hair...I had seen it only always up in a bun on her head...then when I saw her, when she was sick with her broken hip, I was shocked...her hair was clear down to her waist, and nary a grey hair to be found...amazing..

She died in her 90’s....when my younger son, made his year long trip around the world, he made sure to visit Sicily, to be right in the area, where both of his great grandparents were born...the hubby and I actually hope to get to Sicily as well, in the next few years....

[free_life]

My Righteousness is in heaven....His name is Jesus. I have no righteousness of my own.

I cannot add one thing to the finished work of Christ on the cross towards my salvation. If a person believes they can earn their salvation or need purgatory to be good enough to enter into God’s presence they will miss what God wants for them - salvation through His Son Jesus Christ.

I love catholics...I have many catholic brothers and sisters....I just don’t want to see any of them miss God’s way to Him through His Son alone, because of doctrine that has added to the cross/payment of Christ. We must all be concerned with the seriousness of our eternity.

To only hope you are going to heaven or will make the grade in this purgatory fictional place is the most dangerous mistake someone who seeks after God can make. Just settle things with God at the cross of Christ by faith now and rest in Him till the day He takes you. And yep in the mean time work for Him, but out of love not duty.......there are so many lost that do not yet know the gospel of Christ.

[PAR35]

In fact the denial of the sacraments was one of the tools they used to control people, princes, and kings.

Suspension from the sacraments is a legitimate form of church discipline, falling between admonishment and excommunication.

in that you use the term in part in the same way I would say sanctification.

Not quite; I suspect that our definitions of sanctification would be quite similar. Grace is more the 'how' that the 'what'. How do you become sanctified? Through the Holy Spirit. How does the Holy Spirit normally work in us? Through the Scriptures. Thus, the scriptures are a means of grace.

I think I owe you a post about baptism/circumcision, but I don't think I'll get to it tonight.

[Forest Keeper]

The one thing in Holy Scripture He asked us to do in His memory was the Sader meal. He didn’t ask us after the Sermon on the Mount to “do this in memory of Me”, He did not ask us to “do this in memory of Me” in relation to His dying on the cross, He did not ask us to “do this in memory of Me” when he publicly recited from the Sacred Scrolls (I could go on and on).

If Christ had meant the Catholic view of the real presence then He never would have said "Do this in memory of me". Rather, He would have said "Do this WITH me". If Christ is physically there, what is to remember? He's there. Obviously He said "in memory" because He knew He was leaving them and would not be there with them physically again. That's how "in memory" works.

[Gamecock]

Very well said.

[Quix]

Jehovah calls whom He will. That is true. We are known from the foundation of the world, that is true, but also undefined. Undoubtedly all of the family of Man was known from the foundation of the world, every single soul. Jehovah has been all about “robbing the strong man” ever since the fall. How that all shakes out is beyond our knowing, I believe.

And that does not account for phase two either- When our King returns, and we are with Him, we are all made priests and kings in Him, which begs the question: If we are all priests and kings, who are we kings over, and who do we minister to?

I do not reject Calvin’s predestination outright, mind you, but neither can I endorse it fully.

---

I rather agree.

Thxx.

[Quix]

Well and Biblically put.

[Quix]

but no one knows that for sure.

= =

Goodness . . . for once I disagree.

Folks who have had a visit to Heaven, or a Heavenly dream or vision of some length . . . particularly those visiting wholesale . . .

have ABSOLUTELY NO DOUBT. 0.000000%

Check out the 4 year old who fell 9 feet onto concrete though was seen to miraculously turn in the air and somewhat seem to float down . . . who even now at age 7 visits Heaven routinely . . .

and who on her first visit met relatives—an aborted uncle that no one living had known about and other relatives and details she had absolutely no way of knowing about . . .

Even now, she often prefers not to look up so she can go on playing as a normal child—as very often to always when she looks up—she’s immediately ‘IN HEAVEN’ yet again.

Here’s the YOUTUBE interview with her Grandmother. The 2nd one has some of her at 7.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22Z_llT9Lso

6 Big Big Big Angels
by Mary Jo Pennington

[Quix]

Well put.

Of course . . . particularly in some mentalities . . .

dogma

trumps truth every time . . . kind of gives dogmatic a bad name.

[daniel1212]

“Every word of the Scriptures says otherwise...[than that God does not compel]”

Certainly God can compel, and one day every kneee shall bow.., but by compel i mean forced against one’s will. Rather, God is well able to make one willing. Even in hardening Pharaoh’s heart, we can see that God used circumstances which God knew would harden his heart, which Scripture also records he did (Ex. 8:15, 32; 9:34). The “causeth” of Ps. 65:4 (why it was chosen i know not; it is not shown in the Hebrew) need not mean forced against one’s will, and words such as “directed” goes with Prov 21:1: “The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.” Thanks be to God He drew me (and He certainly did, though i had no real motivation otherwise) made me willing to turn to Christ, in which all things essentially became new (even nature seems new to me), though sometimes i regrettably yet resist His will in some ways and must repent. See “Are you born again” by Ryrie for a good overall description of the heart of the regenerate.

Likewise Paul’s conversion was not “forced”, though he was forced into an encounter with the real Christ, and Paul’s God-given desire to serve the real God when faced with Him was manifest in “Lord, what wilt Thou have me to do?”

---

“They’re factual descriptions of mens’ inability to seek God unless He first overcomes their fallen nature which despises the things of God and draws them to Him.”

Agreed. No man seeks God unless God draws him, and grants him”repentance unto life” (Acts 11:18). I am just seeking to reconcile the many texts which manifest God calling and men refusing. Are you saying there is a general call and an effectual call?

---

“Why does God not give all men enough prevenient grace to come to Him, if He desires all men to be saved?”

The question here is how can God say He willing that all should come to repentance, and be saved, and that the grace of God has appeared unto all...?

---

“All men are called to repent and believe because God demands perfect obedience as well as perfect justice. “
“It’s just that those who are not given understanding do not want to seek Him.”

How is demanding perfect obedience from souls which are unable to give it due to the sin of someone else, or not granted repentance to justification by faith, perfect justice?

Prevenient means coming before, and perhaps i am looking more to common grace, which goodness invites souls to repent, but (would not actually enable) and which the non-elect can refuse, but then we are back to the above question.

[daniel1212]

“But what about original sin? If we are born with original sin how are they forgiven? My heart wants you to be so right.”

I do not see Rm. 5 teaching that infants are guilty of Adam’s sin, but they inherit his sinful nature (and thus sin) and also suffer from the effects of the fall. As does all creation. Many places God indicates that He will not judicially punish children for their father’s sins (2Ki_14:5, 2Ki_14:6; 2Ch_25:4; Jer_31:29, Jer_31:30; Eze_18:200, and the final judgment is “according to their works” (Rv. 20:14), not those of their fathers.

Also, perhaps those who know not how to “refuse the evil, and choose the good” (Is. 7:16) are not under the law (Rm. 5:13), though they now suffer for man breaking it.

[wmfights]

Probably the same as when my husband's Baptist parents found out he was marrying a Catholic.

Touche!

Did being unequally yoked create problems?

[wmfights]

I attend, but I am not a member, because I cannot agree with the doctrinal statement in good conscience.

Good for you. I hope you are able to resolve the issue, but taking these things seriously is to your credit.

[wmfights]

Suspension from the sacraments is a legitimate form of church discipline, falling between admonishment and excommunication.

The implication that removal/discipline affects your salvation is the key. As a Baptist we don't believe that can happen. A loss of fellowship, you bet.

[dighton]

... whenever we would go over and visit, she would get all excited and go into the kitchen, get out her silver tray, with special little wine glasses and then a bottle of some sort of alcoholic drink, some sort of sweet, thick, licorice tasting drink, and she would serve everybody ...

Maybe Sambuca or Galliano.