Catholics & Salvation; And the answer is: Maybe.

Stand To Reason ^ | Gregory Koukl

[Gamecock]

A caller to our weekly radio program asked a question that has come up before: Are Roman Catholics saved? Let me respond to this as best I can. But I need to offer a qualifier because I think this is going to be somewhat dissatisfying for some because I am not going to say a simple "aye" or "nay." My answer is: It kind of depends. The reason I'm saying that is because of certain ambiguities.

My point is this, I think that in the area of the doctrine of salvation, Roman Catholic theology, as I understand it, is unbiblical because salvation depends on faith and works, not just faith alone. This was the specific problem Paul addressed in the book of Galatians and was the subject of the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15: Is simple faith in Jesus adequate, or must gentile followers of Christ now keep the Law as a standard of acceptance before God?

I know not all Catholics would agree that this is a fair way of putting it, but I think that most Catholics would actually say the faith/works equation is accurate. Your faith and your works are what save you. I was raised Catholic and that’s what I was taught. (For my take on the biblical relationship between faith and works, see “Faith & Works: Paul vs. James.”)

Now, I need to add this too. Many Protestants feel the same way. Many Protestants are confused on this issue, so this is not a Catholic vs. Protestant concern so much. It's just that Catholicism across the board has more of an official position that amounts this, where Protestants have a more diversity of views, some that don't even seem to be consistent with Protestantism.

But the fact that one believes Jesus is the Messiah and that He is the savior, not our own efforts, is critical. If you reject this notion, like the Jews do, then as far as I can tell from the biblical revelation, there is no hope for you. That seems to be clear. But when somebody says they believe in Jesus and He is their Savior, but somehow works are mingled in with the picture, then I can't really say to you how much faith that person is putting in Jesus and how much faith that person is putting in their own efforts to satisfy God. If a person has all their faith in their own efforts, then they are going to be judged by their own efforts. It's as simple as that. If they have their faith in Jesus, they will be judged by the merits of Jesus. Anyone judged by their own merits is going to be found wanting. Anyone who is judged by the merits of Jesus is not going to be found wanting because Jesus is not wanting.

What if you are kind of a mixture? I think most Catholics are, frankly. Many Protestants are, as well.

I reflect often on a comment that was made by a friend of mine named Dennis. He was a Roman Catholic brother in Christ that I knew when I was a brand new Christian. He asked me this: "Greg, how much faith does it take to be saved?" I said, "A mustard seed." And he said, "There you go."

And so, it seems to me, there are many Christians—Protestant and Catholic—who believe in Jesus as their savior and have a mustard seed of faith, but are confused about the role of works. I think that Jesus is still Savior in those cases.

[Petronski]

NGR

[Dr. Eckleburg]

FWIW, I have been told by Presbyterians that infant baptism does impart Grace. Thus they call it a sacrament. It is one of the few areas I find myself in disagreement with them.

I pinged a couple Presbyterians to clarify.

As a Baptist I follow the two ordinances of the Lord's Supper and Baptism. I do not believe either imparts Grace.

Par 35's links are very good. Protestant infant baptism is nothing like Roman Catholic infant baptism which purports to (only temporarily) erase original sin. Protestants, especially the reformed, know that our sin is not erased; it is paid for by Christ. And once paid, we have been forevermore acquitted of the charge.

Baptism, like the Lord's Supper, are physical representations of the supernatural saving grace God has given to His children, according to His will from before the foundation of the world.

I can understand how non-reformed Baptists do not accept infant baptism because they believe a person is saved at the moment they consciously confess Christ publicly.

But a reformed Baptist has the correct understanding that our election by God took place from all eternity, not according to our work, but according to His good pleasure alone, before we were born, before we could do anything "good or evil" (Romans 9:11).

Therefore, I always encourage my reformed Baptist friends to consider that infant baptism is the recognition of this Godly fact. And the truth is confirmed by our public inclusion of our children into the covenant of grace which acknowledges that God is gathering and conforming His entire family, and thus God saves through the God-ordained family structure.

"And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

"Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage." -- Hebrews 2:13-15

Baptism does not regenerate. Baptism confirms that at a time of God's choosing, we will be regenerated by the Holy Spirit because we have been named to be among His family by His eternal, predestining will.

So Baptism is an act of God's declaration, and not men. The child is baptized; it is not necessary that they be old enough to "accept" this baptism for themselves. As with salvation, they "receive" it, irrespective of their own will. And as children of God from the moment of their birth, they "receive" the birthright of God's family at birth.

I know Baptists really love adult baptism, and I can understand their belief because the word of God can be seen to speak to this. Therefore, all unbaptized adult believers should, of course, be baptized, as they were in the NT. But our children, given by God according to His will, are part of God's family as much as we are.

So God's saving grace is not imparted during baptism; saving grace is acknowledged and confirmed in baptism.

I know when our children were baptized we were overcome by the grace and goodness and blessings of God in that I felt complete assurance God would guide my children every step of the way.

The sacraments are given to us as gifts from God to His children as a sign and seal of His eternal, electing grace. The pastor and owner of the website "A Puritan's Mind" was a reformed Baptist minister for years. Eventually he was pursuaded of infant baptism. He gives a really great, thorough account of his change of heart here...

MY RETRACTION:
A 15-year Baptist turns Paedobaptist and Becomes Reformed
by Dr. C. Matthew

McMahon's other essays on his journey from adult baptism to infant baptism are found in the middle of this page which lists a lot of covenant theology links...

COVENANT THEOLOGY

[Alamo-Girl]

Every time you post "traditions" with such emphasis, immediately pops into my mind the scene from "Fiddler on the Roof" where Tevye begins a song with great emphasis on that same word. LOLOL!

[Quix]

Here’s an all day sucker

and a teddy bear

and a Linus blanket

and a coupon for the last word (for the moment).

Enjoy!

[Dr. Eckleburg]

I should have pinged you to 1,762, too, Mary.

[Quix]

Every time you post "traditions" with such emphasis, immediately pops into my mind the scene from "Fiddler on the Roof" where Tevye begins a song with great emphasis on that same word. LOLOL!

Which is PRECISELY where I got it from.

Though it's a kind of bitter-sweet referent . . . SOME traditions in their proper role CAN add comfort and guidance worth at least prayerfully considering.

It used to be a tradition in our land to avoid sex before marriage for most all professing Christians.

However, that was ALSO BIBLICAL LAW. AND THE LAW OF LOVE.

!!!!TRADITIONS!!!! for tradition's sake easily becomes idolatry. And that Christ had the harshest words for in all His ministry.

Yeah, that point in that movie is PRECISELY where !!!!TRADITION/S!!!! comes from.

I think it's a very vivid example, given that we don't have a video history of Christ's pronouncements on the topic.

Thanks for the kind comment. I've assumed you'd also let me know when your Love Manual comes out! LOL.

[Linden1209]

Agreed. Seems to be the only thing anti-Catholics have going for them is bashing the Catholic religion. And they proudly call themselves “Christians” and proudly tell anyone within earshot that they are the ONLY Christians. I think of the proud man in the front of the church and the humble man in the back. Who did God say would see Heaven? Not the prideful. Maybe the “Christians” should just call themselves “Catholic Bigots”. What a pitiful mob. We Catholics do not think about them at all unless we are pestered. Our neighbors came around with their little ones on Halloween. The man, for no reason, said accusingly, “Halloween is a pagan holiday from Ireland”. I agreed. Again he said it was a pagan holiday. He gave no answer when I asked why he and his family were participating in a pagan holiday. Most of the so-called “Christians” are idiots. They go to the Baptist or some made-up “churches” around here. Then they quote a “Bible” some guy named Jimmy made up. They are very prideful that they do not just quote the Bible story but the Chapter and Verse. I always ask what the page number is. They are bigoted pests.

[andysandmikesmom]

Uh, well for one thing, I am not a Catholic, and I don’t believe that anywhere I have said, that I believe in Papal Infallibility, or the Bodily Assumption of Mary...if I have actually said such, perhaps you could point it out to me...If I did ever say such a thing, and truly dont remember it, that indeed, I must have Alzheimers, and need to see the doctor...in fact both of those ideas you mentioned, give me a great deal of trouble...thus I am seeking to understand those ideas, and am always willing to accept arguments from others, both for and against those ideas....I have a lot of problems, with a lot of what people ‘claim’ is true, gained from their Biblical perspective, whether it be from Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans, Calvinists, whatever....so I read these threads, and see what others have to say, based on their Biblical perspective....then I pray, read my Bible, and hope to come to a perspective that I feel is true...I dont know that there is anything wrong with that...

Let us say I hope to be here, for acquiring a little knowledge, on all sides of these matters....

And as for accepting at absolute face value, what another Freeper may say, well, I have been burned more than once, doing just that, and since this is all anonymous, and we do not really know each other, people can really say anything they want...that does not make it so....so no, I do not accept something at face value, simply because someone anonymously tells me something...I try to be like that in real life as well, and truly I dont know that there is anything wrong with that either...

[Petronski]

...Roman Catholic infant baptism which purports to (only temporarily) erase original sin...

False:

For the forgiveness of sins . . .

1263 By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin.66 In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam's sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God.

[Quix]

RABID RC DAFFYNITIONS can wail, whine and pontificate until Jesus returns that

Biblical based reasonable disagreements with RC edifice dogma

EQUALS

--hate
--RC EDIFICE BASHING
--heresy
--cluelessness
--insanity
--spite
-- . . .
. . .
. . .

Thankfully, the rest of the world and certainly rational Prottys don't buy it for a microsecond.

But we do note the EGREGIOUS DOUBLE STANDARD wherein RC's forbid Prottys from assuming, interpreting or observing anything disagreeable or uncomfortable to rabid RC sensibilities about RC's.

Yet they feel perfectly righteous and free to read Protty hearts, minds, spirits and actions about hate, bashing and all the other HOGWASH RC's try so vainly to lay at Prottys' feet.

Nice try.

No cigar.

[Quix]

It’s still rather shocking to me

that such purportedly

righteous RC reps

REALLY SEEM TO BELIEVE

that God is blind to their EGREGIOUS DOUBLE STANDARDS.

LOL.

[OLD REGGIE]

If you look up the word “pray,” you will find it means ask.

Of course you are forced to use an obscure, lower level, definition.

Latin: precor

English: to beseech, to pray, beg, entreat, invoke

[wagglebee]

Protestant infant baptism is nothing like Roman Catholic infant baptism which purports to (only temporarily) erase original sin.

Once again you have incorrectly stated that all Protestants dismiss the significance of Baptism. Though it means little to you, it is critical to nearly all Christians, including most Protestants.

Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. (Matthew 28:19)

Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (John 3:5)

For we are buried together with him by baptism into death; that as Christ is risen from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also may walk in newness of life. (Romans 6:4)

But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38)

Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. (1 Peter 3:31)

[OLD REGGIE]

Now it’s my turn. What the heck is that?

[andysandmikesmom]

Thank you...

[Dr. Eckleburg]

And yet when you as a Catholic commit another sin, that sin must be accounted for and confessed to a priest and absolved by the priest (te-absolvo) through the sacrament of absolution.

As does every sin you commit after that in an endless round of confession/absolution, ad infinitum until death, and even beyond death in purgatory.

[Petronski]

When caught in this false statement:

...Roman Catholic infant baptism which purports to (only temporarily) erase original sin...

You change the subject.

Baptism permanently erases original sin.

[1000 silverlings]

it’s Ganesha, a god of India. He will lick milk off a spoon. You can dress him up in robes and give him a crown and have intimate conversations with him, ....or not. No one “worships” him or “prays” to him either.

[OLD REGGIE]

Perhaps you would like to comment on the “idolatry” in posts 1708 and 1714.

Perhaps you'd be better off asking a Lutheran.

I'd be glad to comment on images you find in a Unitarian Church.

[Petronski]

I will use your first definition: to beseech.