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Catholics & Salvation; And the answer is: Maybe.
Stand To Reason ^ | Gregory Koukl

Posted on 07/07/2008 10:39:05 PM PDT by Gamecock

A caller to our weekly radio program asked a question that has come up before: Are Roman Catholics saved? Let me respond to this as best I can. But I need to offer a qualifier because I think this is going to be somewhat dissatisfying for some because I am not going to say a simple "aye" or "nay." My answer is: It kind of depends. The reason I'm saying that is because of certain ambiguities.

My point is this, I think that in the area of the doctrine of salvation, Roman Catholic theology, as I understand it, is unbiblical because salvation depends on faith and works, not just faith alone. This was the specific problem Paul addressed in the book of Galatians and was the subject of the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15: Is simple faith in Jesus adequate, or must gentile followers of Christ now keep the Law as a standard of acceptance before God?

I know not all Catholics would agree that this is a fair way of putting it, but I think that most Catholics would actually say the faith/works equation is accurate. Your faith and your works are what save you. I was raised Catholic and that’s what I was taught. (For my take on the biblical relationship between faith and works, see “Faith & Works: Paul vs. James.”)

Now, I need to add this too. Many Protestants feel the same way. Many Protestants are confused on this issue, so this is not a Catholic vs. Protestant concern so much. It's just that Catholicism across the board has more of an official position that amounts this, where Protestants have a more diversity of views, some that don't even seem to be consistent with Protestantism.

But the fact that one believes Jesus is the Messiah and that He is the savior, not our own efforts, is critical. If you reject this notion, like the Jews do, then as far as I can tell from the biblical revelation, there is no hope for you. That seems to be clear. But when somebody says they believe in Jesus and He is their Savior, but somehow works are mingled in with the picture, then I can't really say to you how much faith that person is putting in Jesus and how much faith that person is putting in their own efforts to satisfy God. If a person has all their faith in their own efforts, then they are going to be judged by their own efforts. It's as simple as that. If they have their faith in Jesus, they will be judged by the merits of Jesus. Anyone judged by their own merits is going to be found wanting. Anyone who is judged by the merits of Jesus is not going to be found wanting because Jesus is not wanting.

What if you are kind of a mixture? I think most Catholics are, frankly. Many Protestants are, as well.

I reflect often on a comment that was made by a friend of mine named Dennis. He was a Roman Catholic brother in Christ that I knew when I was a brand new Christian. He asked me this: "Greg, how much faith does it take to be saved?" I said, "A mustard seed." And he said, "There you go."

And so, it seems to me, there are many Christians—Protestant and Catholic—who believe in Jesus as their savior and have a mustard seed of faith, but are confused about the role of works. I think that Jesus is still Savior in those cases.


TOPICS: Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; Mainline Protestant; Theology
KEYWORDS: salvation
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To: Alamo-Girl; betty boop; Petronski; OLD REGGIE; TXnMA; hosepipe; Quix; Marysecretary; ...
Yes.. a study of the greek words for love is a veritable education.. English having only one word.. is very limiting.. The surface descriptions of the greek words for love is not enough.. but a study into the "spirit" of the greek words is required.. Where Jesus told Peter to LOVE three times is another lesson.. in the greek.. in the english translation it is a mystery or easily misleading..

A sidebar by you(or betty boop) or both (or others) to explain these words would be refreshing.. MAny sermons could be spoken on this subject.. Many "here" could add to the discussion also.. The greek words propose a deep understanding of love.. much deeper than the english word.. I know of few "christians" that know of these things..

1,721 posted on 07/21/2008 9:52:23 AM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole....)
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To: Petronski; Quix
The very gates of Hell shall not prevail against the Catholic Church, as He promised.

Jesus never mentioned the Catholic Church.
1,722 posted on 07/21/2008 9:59:58 AM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let m e be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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To: OLD REGGIE

Jesus never mentioned the Trinity.


1,723 posted on 07/21/2008 10:01:22 AM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: andysandmikesmom; Marysecretary; Quix
"Sorry, but as I said before, I dont like to take things like this, from a second or third hand source..."

Amazing! You are prepared to accept sources many times removed from the scene as Dogma yet totally skeptical to accept the word of a fellow FReeper.

Frankly, I also frequently insist on the source material and I have no real problem with your unwillingness to accept anything without reservation.

Why then are you so willing to accept such a thing as "Papal Infallibility", which was slowly concocted over hundreds of years or the "Bodily Assumption of Mary" which also "developed" over hundreds of years?

1,724 posted on 07/21/2008 10:16:51 AM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let m e be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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To: Alamo-Girl
But because there has been some interest in it, it will likely be made available through the same outlets as betty boop and my previous book Don't Let Science Get You down, Timothy

Please add me to your ping list when the book becomes available.

I am particularly impressed that used copies of the "Timothy" book at the great discount of $.41 are available.

1,725 posted on 07/21/2008 10:26:49 AM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let m e be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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To: hosepipe
Thank you oh so very much for sharing your insights, dear brother in Christ!

I very strongly agree with you that a sidebar exploring the meanings of the word "love" in common currency as contrasted with words of God would be very informative and helpful.

God is love.

To God be the glory!

1,726 posted on 07/21/2008 10:30:47 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: OLD REGGIE
LOLOL! And, yes, I'll be glad to ping you when the book comes out, dear brother in Christ!
1,727 posted on 07/21/2008 10:32:45 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl; Petronski; OLD REGGIE; betty boop; hosepipe; Quix; Marysecretary; Dr. Eckleburg; ...
It strikes my whimsy-button that many weddings begin with the words, "Dearly Beloved, we are gathered..."

<chuckle...>

1,728 posted on 07/21/2008 10:36:42 AM PDT by TXnMA ("Allah": Satan's current alias...!!)
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To: TXnMA
LOLOL! Great catch, dearly beloved brother in Christ!
1,729 posted on 07/21/2008 10:40:06 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Quix; Petronski
ACTIONS

speak louder than words.


1,730 posted on 07/21/2008 10:56:20 AM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let m e be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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To: OLD REGGIE

So YOU get to decide what is in his heart, not him?

That’s a sick attitude.


1,731 posted on 07/21/2008 10:59:33 AM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Petronski
Tough to know what you are asking. How about a verb?

One statement by you.

One question from me.

And you don't know what the question is?

Forget questions. Show where it is Catholic Teaching that the Holy Spirit "breathes" on the Priest at ordination.

1,732 posted on 07/21/2008 11:02:35 AM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let m e be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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To: OLD REGGIE

what the heck is that?


1,733 posted on 07/21/2008 11:13:23 AM PDT by 1000 silverlings (Everything that deceives also enchants: Plato)
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To: OLD REGGIE
One question from me.

Not really. Just words followed by a question mark. No indication what information you were seeking.

http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect2chpt3.htm

1,734 posted on 07/21/2008 11:15:09 AM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Alamo-Girl

Add me to the list, AG!


1,735 posted on 07/21/2008 11:15:37 AM PDT by 1000 silverlings (Everything that deceives also enchants: Plato)
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To: Petronski
Teach the children to pray to Mary

Just a friendly conversation.
1,736 posted on 07/21/2008 11:21:34 AM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let m e be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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To: 1000 silverlings
what the heck is that?

It's the Pope not praying to Mary.
1,737 posted on 07/21/2008 11:23:38 AM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let m e be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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To: OLD REGGIE

If you look up the word “pray,” you will find it means ask.

The one Marian prayer all Catholics know is a recitation of Luke 1:28 and a request that she pray for us now and at the hour of our death.

Again, though, it is YOU who decides what is in Catholics’ hearts, not those Catholics, right?

A very sick attitude.


1,738 posted on 07/21/2008 11:26:19 AM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Petronski
http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect2chpt3.htm

You have confirmed it is not Catholic Teaching that the Holy Spirit breathes on the Priest at Ordination.
1,739 posted on 07/21/2008 11:29:51 AM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let m e be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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To: 1000 silverlings
Will do, dear 1000 silverlings! My pleasure.
1,740 posted on 07/21/2008 11:30:07 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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