There was a reason I sent a reply to the one
Please don't cherrypick a few words and manufacture a story out of it. Does "and pinged one other person" have any meaning to you?
Posted on 07/07/2008 10:39:05 PM PDT by Gamecock
A caller to our weekly radio program asked a question that has come up before: Are Roman Catholics saved? Let me respond to this as best I can. But I need to offer a qualifier because I think this is going to be somewhat dissatisfying for some because I am not going to say a simple "aye" or "nay." My answer is: It kind of depends. The reason I'm saying that is because of certain ambiguities.
My point is this, I think that in the area of the doctrine of salvation, Roman Catholic theology, as I understand it, is unbiblical because salvation depends on faith and works, not just faith alone. This was the specific problem Paul addressed in the book of Galatians and was the subject of the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15: Is simple faith in Jesus adequate, or must gentile followers of Christ now keep the Law as a standard of acceptance before God?
I know not all Catholics would agree that this is a fair way of putting it, but I think that most Catholics would actually say the faith/works equation is accurate. Your faith and your works are what save you. I was raised Catholic and that’s what I was taught. (For my take on the biblical relationship between faith and works, see “Faith & Works: Paul vs. James.”)
Now, I need to add this too. Many Protestants feel the same way. Many Protestants are confused on this issue, so this is not a Catholic vs. Protestant concern so much. It's just that Catholicism across the board has more of an official position that amounts this, where Protestants have a more diversity of views, some that don't even seem to be consistent with Protestantism.
But the fact that one believes Jesus is the Messiah and that He is the savior, not our own efforts, is critical. If you reject this notion, like the Jews do, then as far as I can tell from the biblical revelation, there is no hope for you. That seems to be clear. But when somebody says they believe in Jesus and He is their Savior, but somehow works are mingled in with the picture, then I can't really say to you how much faith that person is putting in Jesus and how much faith that person is putting in their own efforts to satisfy God. If a person has all their faith in their own efforts, then they are going to be judged by their own efforts. It's as simple as that. If they have their faith in Jesus, they will be judged by the merits of Jesus. Anyone judged by their own merits is going to be found wanting. Anyone who is judged by the merits of Jesus is not going to be found wanting because Jesus is not wanting.
What if you are kind of a mixture? I think most Catholics are, frankly. Many Protestants are, as well.
I reflect often on a comment that was made by a friend of mine named Dennis. He was a Roman Catholic brother in Christ that I knew when I was a brand new Christian. He asked me this: "Greg, how much faith does it take to be saved?" I said, "A mustard seed." And he said, "There you go."
And so, it seems to me, there are many Christians—Protestant and Catholic—who believe in Jesus as their savior and have a mustard seed of faith, but are confused about the role of works. I think that Jesus is still Savior in those cases.
Baptist Calvinist or Baptist Arminianists...then fracture upon fracture until you have these petty schims upon schisms and these uncommon sounding names of fractured church atop fracture atop even more fractures.
“”And every one of them contain more truth than the RCC””
LOL, funny one. 2000 years of Christ’s Apostles and successors and the first Fathers of the Church of Christ and all of the Love and Tradition, including the selection of the books to be included in the Holy Bible...Christ’s guarantee of its survival against the pitiful 27 year old rantings of Jean Cauvin’s lunacy and impetuous rebellion.
It’s like NFL all stars vs. a backyard pickup football game of 6 year olds. But throw away the self-righteous self-idolatry of the “self-elect” and the All stars will let you carry some water and learn.
But they've taken so much heat for this error that now they simply deny the plan meaning of words.
Again.
Yet another way you misstate Catholic teaching.
Are your misstatements intentional?
But we are not saved by our good works; we are saved by free, unmerited mercy, as Christ tells us.
Good works are the result of our salvation; not a requirement for it.
***I have very likely posted to you more Gospel verse than you have ever encountered in your life.
ROTFLOL!!!
Your hubris knows no end. I’m really amazed. It’s dazzling. ***
The Four Gospels. Read them. They are the focus of Christianity, not snippets of poor out of context Paul. It isn’t me with the hubris. I am not that student council arrogant-without-reason-nerd that feels somehow superior to others without any reason.
***Of course Christ does not condemn the bulk of humanity to everlasting death. ***
Prove it from Calvinist teaching.
***My church is not the “church of death.” ***
It is so. Shall I quote? WCF Chapter III:
VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extends or withholds mercy, as He pleases, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath for their sin, to the praised of His glorious justice.
The Reformed God is pleased to order the rest of mankind that He created unto everlasting torment. That is not the theology of death? This is not the theology of little boys pulling wings off flies? You have strange gods before you, Dr. E. Not Christ.
***You’re being lied to.***
You may wish to look in the mirror when you say that.
Yes. It is more than just a "re-enactment." It is a re-presentation of the Sacrifice on the Cross on Calvary.
Much more than a re-enactment (say, for example, grape juice and wonder bread at the protestant flavor of the month storefront bodega and house of worship).
***The teaching of the Reformation is the teaching of Jesus Christ.
The teaching of Rome is the same harness of the law administered by the Pharisees. “Do this and be saved.”
“Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” — Romans 4:4-5***
Isn’t it ironic? You say: the teaching of the Reformation is the teaching of Jesus Christ and then you only misquote Paul.
If you would, please comment on Matthew 5-8 and 24-25. These are the teachings of Jesus Christ. They are even quoted, if that would satisfy your Reformed soul. Here, Jesus tells us what we have to do for everlasting life with Him. We do not need the death of Calvinistic theology.
I should hit the abuse botton because there's nothing like telling someone they "are not saved whatsoever" for "making things personal."
On second thought, I prefer everyone reads the extent of your pathology.
“27 year old rantings of Jean Cauvin’s lunacy and impetuous rebellion.”
Ouch, that hurt! I guess Jean Cauvin in his wisdom and quite alone without anyone to argue with him made the Bible say what he wanted it to say to fit what he wanted to believe. He wasn’t the first and he definitely won’t be the last, all you have to do is see how the Calvinists have changed their beliefs from what Calvin taught originally. They kept the things they wanted and threw the rest away. How come? Theology by ego.
Please do. There's me...and who else?
***********************
You may want to check with the RM before doing so.
I cannot count how many times fortheDeclaration told me I am damned. At least half a dozen.
“More Calvinist than Calvin.”
See also: Gresham Machen
***Show me where God says that Dr. E. is headed to heaven.
I realize this is an open-ended question for a Catholic who can slip from God’s hand any time he forgets to confess a sin. But I am strengthened by Christ’s command, and therefore, I do not fear.
“Be not afraid; only believe.” — Mark 5:36
But I see that even though you say you put so much faith in the Gospels you still ignore this verse. And many more verses by Christ.***
In other words, you have nothing. Let us examine this verse that you have from Mark. I know that it is strange to you, so we should figure out what it means.
Mark 5:
25
There was a woman afflicted with hemorrhages for twelve years.
26
She had suffered greatly at the hands of many doctors and had spent all that she had. Yet she was not helped but only grew worse.
27
She had heard about Jesus and came up behind him in the crowd and touched his cloak.
28
9 She said, “If I but touch his clothes, I shall be cured.”
29
Immediately her flow of blood dried up. She felt in her body that she was healed of her affliction.
30
Jesus, aware at once that power had gone out from him, turned around in the crowd and asked, “Who has touched my clothes?”
31
But his disciples said to him, “You see how the crowd is pressing upon you, and yet you ask, ‘Who touched me?’”
32
And he looked around to see who had done it.
33
The woman, realizing what had happened to her, approached in fear and trembling. She fell down before Jesus and told him the whole truth.
34
He said to her, “Daughter, your faith has saved you. Go in peace and be cured of your affliction.”
35
10 While he was still speaking, people from the synagogue official’s house arrived and said, “Your daughter has died; why trouble the teacher any longer?”
36
Disregarding the message that was reported, Jesus said to the synagogue official, “Do not be afraid; just have faith.”
37
He did not allow anyone to accompany him inside except Peter, James, and John, the brother of James.
38
When they arrived at the house of the synagogue official, he caught sight of a commotion, people weeping and wailing loudly.
39
11 So he went in and said to them, “Why this commotion and weeping? The child is not dead but asleep.”
40
And they ridiculed him. Then he put them all out. He took along the child’s father and mother and those who were with him and entered the room where the child was.
41
12 He took the child by the hand and said to her, “Talitha koum,” which means, “Little girl, I say to you, arise!”
42
The girl, a child of twelve, arose immediately and walked around. (At that) they were utterly astounded.
43
He gave strict orders that no one should know this and said that she should be given something to eat.
Do not be afraid: it is the Gospel of Mark.
Jesus is saying that we need to believe in Him. But you have layers of Calvin between you and Jesus. Let them go and come back to the Church.
***But I see that even though you say you put so much faith in the Gospels you still ignore this verse. And many more verses by Christ.***
There are no commands of Christ that we ignore. We believe. We do not KNOW. We believe. False knowledge is of the fallen one, not Christ.
***The Reformed do not “jettison the Sermon on the Mount,” whatever that means. ***
It does not occur in Reformed theology either as a justification for the theology nor as a guide for behaviour.
And your evidence for this slander is?
It’s long been FR rules that any of us can post on the forum any FReepmail we receive. That’s one reason why we should be careful what we say in FReepmail.
It's the intention that matters as much as anything, imho.
Then take it up with him.
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