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To: SkyPilot
The inverted pentagram was used by Christians to symbolise the morning star. There are many reasons for this. As the morning star it tracks the elliptical path of Venus. You'll notice in many renditions that the points don't actually come together. The distance corresponds with the days that it is visible in the sky. Jesus is called the Morning star in the scriptures. "I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star." (Revelations 22:16)

Venus is reflective of the sunlight (the sun is associated with God in the Bible as well). It is a very complex and fitting meaning that early Christians attached to the morning star (inverted pentagram). What is amazing is how well they understood the astronomical properties. The symbolic meaning is touching as Jesus (the morning star) reflects the light of the celestial sun (the Father). Of course the first time it was associated with Satanism was from a defrocked French man of course. Leave it to the Frenchies to slander a Christian symbol so thouroughly that so called conservative (who uncannily keep using liberal arguments) have willingly given their symbol of Christ up. You should be standing up for your own Christians symbol.

Why do you collude with the defrocked Frenchie to promote the later false meaning of the morning star instead of the original Christian meanings. To use my analogy again. What you are arguing is that the rainbow really should be used for gays instead of as a sign of the covenant. Since when do Christians give up their symbols just to try to make Mormons look bad. you should be fighting for your own symbols.

The pdf link at this article is an interesting read. The inverted pentagram was associated with Christ by Constantine (ever heard of him?) and is found on the medal of honor as well. There are many pics in the pdf article linked here www.fairlds.org/pubs/Stars.pdf of the Christian usage over thousands of years of the inverted pentagram. Christian symbol inverted pentagram

The real question is are you going to continue to promote the secular Frenchie version and deny your own Christian meaning just to bash Mormons or are you going to stand unashamed and fight for your own symbols.

2 Timothy 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;

The Chartres Cathedral and Amiens Cathedral displays inverted pentagrams. The book by Yves, "Art of the Christian World: AD 200-1500 A handbook of Styles and Forms" has more.

This link discusses the Christological symoblism The Pentagram

...it should be also noted that they are non-existent in any depiction of the Devil or Satan before Éliphas Lévi’s nineteenth century Baphomet. [7] There are a number of examples of the pentagram found on buildings of a religious nature in Europe. [13] Notable examples can be seen on gravestones in the Claustro da Lavagem in the Convento at Tomar, Portugal, the monastery of Ravna, Bulgaria and the Church of All Saints at Kilham, Humberside, Yorkshire, England, which incorporates the symbol on the columns which support the Norman doorway. [10] It is indented on the gateposts of the churchyard of S. Peter’s, Walworth, England, built in 1824. [11] There are also a number of examples in the sketchbook of thirteenth century stonemason, Villard de Honnecourt. [8] Further examples of the pentagram’s use in Christian architecture can be found in a large carved inverted star in the centre of the north transept rose window of Amiens Cathedral in France, built between 1220 and 1410 C.E.; a huge inverted five-pointed star on the steeple of the Marktkirche, or Market Church in fourteenth century Hanover, Germany; the numerous inverted stars that surround a statue of Mary and the Christ Child in Chartres Cathedral circa 1150 C.E.; the interlaced star depicted in the "Berthold Missal" drawn in the Benedictine Abbey in Weingarten Germany circa 1225 C.E.; an inverted nativity star in the sculpted capital of a cloister pillar from the twelfth century C.E.; and various Orthodox paintings that illustrate the Mount of Transfiguration.[14]

14. See Martin Hürlimann, French Cathedrals. New York: Viking Press, 1967, p. 149 for Amiens Cathedral; Christian Norberg-Shulz, The Concept of Dwelling: On the Way to Figurative Architecture. New York: Rizzoli, 1985, p. 74 for Marktkirche; Gertrud Schiller, Iconography of Christian Art. Greenwich, Connecticut: New York Graphic Society, 1971, 1, plate 271 for Weingarten; Yves Christe, et. al., Art of the Christian World, A.D. 200-1500: A Handbook of Styles and Forms. New York: Rizzoli, 1982, p. 346; Leonid Ouspensky and Vladimir Lossky, The Meaning of Icons. Boston, Massachusetts: Boston Book and Art Shop, 1952, p. 213; Engelina Smirnova, Moscow Icons: 14th-17th Centuries. Oxford: Phaidon, 1989, figure 121; V. N. Lazarev, Moscow School of Icon Painting. Moscow: Ishkusstvo, 1971 for Orthodox paintings.

When the temple was built (and the Logan Temple which also has inverted stars) Mormons openly declared the Christ centered meaning of the stars (and published its meaning in the local newspapers of the day). Symbols mean what we (or God has attached to them). It is interesting that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, which claims to be a restoration of the primitive Church of Christ, is the one who has the correct meaning of the early symbols while you have adopted and legitimized the defrocked Frenchman's version.

Mormons like this symbol as well. Care to have a go at it and say Mormons are gay now as well?


204 posted on 07/10/2008 3:01:17 AM PDT by Rameumptom (Gen X= they killed 1 in 4 of us)
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To: Old Mountain man

ping to 204


205 posted on 07/10/2008 3:04:30 AM PDT by Rameumptom (Gen X= they killed 1 in 4 of us)
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To: Rameumptom
The Nauvoo Pentagrams

____________________________________________________________________

Excerpt:

History of the Pentagram

The five-pointed star is a simple design that has shown up in the artwork of several cultures. Deciding when the inverted star actually came to be known as a symbol of evil can be confusing. There is no general consensus among historians and even Wiccans and witches are not in full agreement. Some say this happened around the time of the Inquisition, while others say it could have been as late as the 19th century.

Mormon apologists are correct when they insist that Christians have used the pentagram or pentacle in their artwork. For instance, at one time the five-pointed star was commonly known as the "five wounds of Christ." However, the time frame in which Christians used this symbol becomes very important, and, as I will examine later in this article, tend to discount many LDS assertions. One thing we do know and that is the inverted pentagram has come to be associated with evil. Of that there is little doubt. Consider the following:

"The pentagram with one point upwards repels evil, but a reversed pentagram, with two points upwards, is a symbol of the Devil and attracts sinister forces because it is upside down and because it stands for the number 2. It represents the great Goat of the witches' sabbath and the two upward points are the Goat's horn." (The Black Arts, Richard Cavendish (G.P.Putnam's Sons Publishing; 1967, p.265).

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The LDS Perspective

I am not aware of any evidence that proves Smith was purposely attempting to use a symbol that society at the time would have viewed as evil, nor do I know of any LDS who feels such a symbol is meant to represent Satan either blatantly or esoterically. In fact, most Mormons have told me that the pentagrams used on LDS buildings symbolize the stars mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:41. Perhaps that works for a Mormon, but I personally don't imagine pentagrams when I read how "one star differs from another star in glory." But then again, that's just me.

BYU professor of history William Hamblin raises some good questions when he asks what the five-pointed star meant in the 1840s in the United States (email received 9/10/02). This is important because we would assume that what this emblem meant at the time the Nauvoo temple was built would probably reflect how Joseph Smith would have seen it as well.

Mr. Hamblin mentions in the same email that the "the swastika is a symbol of Nazism in the mid-twentieth century, but is a symbol of the sun-god or of good luck in India and Tibet." This is true. In fact, for thousands of years the swastika, or the reversed sauvastika, shows up in artwork all over the world, including the artwork of American Indians. However, when Adolph Hitler chose to use this emblem as an insignia for his Nazi Party, things began to change very rapidly. This, I feel, is the whole issue regarding the LDS Church's use of the inverted pentagram on its buildings. Mormons may argue that Smith's pentagram was perfectly harmless in the 1840s, but there is no denying that many people in the world today associate it with evil. Show most people a picture of an inverted pentagram and I am sure that only Mormons would insist this is the star mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:41.

..........................................

Joseph Smith's fascination with folk-magic may supply some of the answers to this mystery. His use of seer stones, amulets, and magical parchments certainly do not help us draw a conclusion that Smith had no knowledge of what was known to be "occultic" in his time period. We do know that the word occult during Smith's time meant, "to conceal." Other definitions include invisible, secret, unknown, undiscovered, and undetected. The 1828 American Dictionary of the English Language states, "...the occult sciences are magic, necromancy, &c." The fact that the LDS temple ceremony (prior to 1990) on numerous occasions used the words secret and secrecy would tend to fit well within this definition.

Even if it could be proven that prior to the 1840s the inverted pentagram did not have any relationship to evil, it does not explain why the Mormons would continue to use it during a time period when, by Hamblin's own admission, it definitely does have that connotation. The LDS Church has used the inverted star to decorate other buildings that were completed long after 1855. This would include the famous Salt Lake temple, which was finished in 1893. Several inverted stars with an elongated point at the bottom can also be found in the woodwork in the Christus Rotunda in the North Visitor's Center on Temple Square that was built in 1963.

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No Win Situation

When I heard that the LDS Church was going to rebuild the Nauvoo temple using its original design, I felt that they were going to find themselves between a rock and a hard place when it came to the pentagrams. If they kept them, they would be criticized for its now universal association to evil. If they changed them, it would be construed as somehow recognizing something was amiss. However, make no mistake about it, there is good reason to believe that Gordon Hinckley knew full well that this symbol would cause controversy. He could have easily avoided it, but he chose not to.

In his book entitled Window Maker, Charles W. Allen tells how he was commissioned by the LDS Church to build the leaded glass stars that encircle the outside of the Nauvoo temple. The original plan was to stick as closely as possible to the original design, so Allan commenced to put together stars that would be placed in an inverted fashion. However, Allan notes on page 182 of his book how on Tuesday, May 8 [2001] he was approached by three men from his church. He writes, " ...Ron Prince, Cory Karl and Keith Stepan were in the shop this morning to see how I was doing and to take a look at the colored glass in the star sash. They really liked what they saw. Keith asked me whether, if President Hinckley wanted to have the star pointed in an up position, that would be possible? I said yes, that all I had to do is to rotate the sash. He made a recorded note of that for his next meeting with President Hinckley. There is some concern by members of the temple committee that the upside down star would be interpreted as a Satanic symbol which some cults believe in today."

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Conclusion

I personally feel that Hinckley's loyalty to Smith's original design is to blame for much of this controversy. We have no reason to believe he was compelled to remain completely true to the temple's original design given the fact that the upright angel atop the steeple is not the same as the horizontal weathervane/angel used in 1846.

If I may offer my suggestion, I think the best way this issue could have been avoided would have been for Hinckley to change the design and issue a press release that said something like, "Because the meaning of the inverted pentagram has changed drastically since the 1840's we felt that in order not to offend the many Christians who see this design in a negative light, we plan to place the stars in an upright position." In doing so he would have calmed the concerns of his temple committee and probably put to rest many undo criticisms.

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Bottom line: if I saw a church with a swastika in its stone face, I would draw back. The LDS church does not even recognize, and you have reinforced it with your defense, the problem of having this Occult symbol as part of its architecture.

223 posted on 07/10/2008 4:17:47 PM PDT by SkyPilot ("I wasn't in church during the time when the statements were made.")
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To: Rameumptom
Mormons like this symbol as well. Care to have a go at it and say Mormons are gay now as well?

12God said, "This is the sign of the covenant which I am making between Me and you and every living creature that is with you, for all successive generations; 13I set My bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a sign of a covenant between Me and the earth. 14"It shall come about, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow will be seen in the cloud, 15and I will remember My covenant, which is between Me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and never again shall the water become a flood to destroy all flesh. 16"When the bow is in the cloud, then I will look upon it, to remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is on the earth."

Genesis 9: 12-16

Just because homosexuals hijacked God's symbol of Hope and turned it into a symbol of deviancy, does not take away what God intended.

I would suspect the painting you mentioned was to speak to the Genesis flood. If you don't believe that, then perhaps you are already on the planet Kolob.

224 posted on 07/10/2008 4:25:38 PM PDT by SkyPilot ("I wasn't in church during the time when the statements were made.")
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