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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Your verses do not show predestination to hell.

***”What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.” — Romans 9:22-23 ***

Nothing about hell.

***”Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.” — Ephesians 1:5-6 ***

Nothing about hell.

***”For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ” — 1 Thessalonians 5:9 ***

Nothing about hell.

***”And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.” — 1 Peter 2:8***

Even this bad translation of the KJV says nothing about hell, only that those who are not obediant to God will stumble against Jesus.

***”The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.” — Proverbs 16:4 ***

Let us go to the NAB for commentary: The favorable or unfavorable result of chance depends on God. Deciding strifes and doubts by lot was practiced by the ancient Hebrews; cf Exodus 28:15-30; Lev 16:8; Joshua 7:14; 1 Sam 10:20-21.

You have posted no verse that supports predestination to hell. You last attempt included a rather feeble attempt to make James support it. Your Calvin was a monster, creating monstrous theology in direct opposition to the love and the mercy of Christ. I do not know what anyone would support it; I believe that you love your family and that you are a good person. Why would you believe in a theology of death?


5,751 posted on 06/14/2008 2:16:34 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr; 1000 silverlings
"vessels of wrath fitted to destruction"

Nothing about hell.

Really? Where do you think a vessel fitted to destruction will end up, especially in light of the fact it's being contrasted to a "vessel of mercy?"

"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ"

Nothing about hell.

Really? Where is it that some men are not appointed to? Do men who are not appointed to God's mercy but appointed to God's wrath end up in heaven?

"being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed."

Even this bad translation of the KJV says nothing about hell, only that those who are not obediant to God will stumble against Jesus.

Read the verse again, Mark. It doesn't say men will stumble; it says some men were "appointed" to stumble.

"The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." — Proverbs 16:4

Let us go to the NAB for commentary: The favorable or unfavorable result of chance depends on God. Deciding strifes and doubts by lot was practiced by the ancient Hebrews

LOL. I haven't the foggiest notion of what that means. Unlike the actual words of the Proverb which seem entirely clear.

God's in control of His creation, Mark. That's not something to rebuke or fear. That's very good news.

"And [God] hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." -- Acts 17:26-28


"But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead:

Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us" -- 2 Corinthians 1:9-10

Have you been delivered "from so great a death?" Did God ordain that deliverance from before the foundation of the world, or was it a spur-of-the-moment, yet still prudent idea on your part?

5,778 posted on 06/14/2008 3:42:06 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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