Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Now, now.
That’s unfair.
You know that the Hysterical White Hanky Society has had absolutely no training in
Yes or No answers.
In fact, they may need several hours of vocabulary instruction just to begin their training in how to answer such questions.
I mean, I admire your faith in embarking on such a challenging hope. I just hope you’re also a little more realistic than it appears.
Although “Trinity” is not stated the doctrine is explicit in the scriptures. The one, institutional, hierarchical church is not. There were many “churches” mentioned in the scriptures, some with elders, some with prophet-teachers, some democratic and some anarchical. some highly ritualistic and some just teaching churches. There was no central controlling body or person in the early churches as witness Paul’s problems in Corinth and in his letter to the Philippian church.
= = =
INDEED.
And here’s the one from Petronski:
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My contention is not what you have said, it is what the Scriptural verses say.
9,872 posted on Saturday, June 28, 2008 8:58:50 PM by Petronski
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Frankly, that’s not a funny post either, and it was posted to a third party. Again, what is the reason for the laughter? Inability to come up with a rational argument isn’t a laughing matter, it’s pathetic.
I suggest you reinvestigate the definition of the word "explicit."
Another seasoned, intelligent answer to a poster?
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
Who are those people? Some sort of mental construct unknown and unseen by anyone else? I would appreciate an answer from anyone.
I understand that [the focus on praying to the Father] and have respect for that.
As I’ve said many times . . . my noisey stuff is NOT meant for where it doesn’t apply, at all.
It’s only targeted for where it does—and only God and maybe, hopefully, sometimes, at least, the guilty know where it applies.
Thanks for your kind post.
Might as well be thorough.
ahhhhh.
Thxx.
"ALL have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God."
ALL. Even gigglers, tee-hee-ers, and guffawers.
“I suggest you reinvestigate the definition of the word “explicit.”
I suggest you consult your bible
Acts 2:32-39, “ This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.”
Another tightly reasoned, intelligent reply from a protestant poster....oh! wait! Maybe it's some kind of fantasy....no, couldn't be. That would be sick.
Again with the fantasies.
For today’s lesson, Ladies and Gentlemen, Boys and Girls, dogs and cats,
we will be studying the letter “P” . . . brought to us by our friendly neighborhood polecat.
For those needing hours of prep, tomorrow’s lesson will be on the letter “E”—brought to us by the obsessive compulsive inebriated theologian down the block.
That should give us the weekend to recover and prepare for Tuesday’s lesson on the letter “R”—brought to us by the retired rattlesnake from that funny ‘church’ on the other side of town.
I realize many are hoping that by Wednesday we could be on the letter “S.” However, this is proving such doggedly difficult going for some students, it may be next week before we get to “S”—which will be brought to us by the retired toothless and lobotomized mountain lion formerly with the circus.
Cheers. Now do the homework, students! Happy studying until next class.
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