The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

[Ultra Sonic 007]

Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.

There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.

Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).

Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.

Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.

I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.

But do I WORSHIP them?

No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.

I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.

There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.

Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.

In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.

At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.

[Quix]

An honest question, MD . . .

is there something . . . in the holy water or the sacramental wine—no, that doesn’t go to the serfs . . .

uhhhhh . . . I give up . . . in the air some RC’s breathe?

I give up.

WHAT is it . . . that several RC’s MOST CHRONICALLY GIVEN TO MOST REPEATEDLY PERSONALLY ASSAULTING OTHERS IN THE MOST OUTRAGEOUS TERMS THE MOST BRAZENLY DIRECTLY—OFTEN EVEN USING “YOU” AND “YOUR” . . .

are the quickest to wail the loudest at the least hint of merely an implied personal affront???

Have all their mirrors truly been shattered in a personal outrage at themselves? What???

I’m somewhat at a loss to even imagine what all must go into such a phenomenon.

I think if a Protty were guilty of such

1. he’d have been banned long term many times over, by now.
2. The Prottys en masse would have badgered and harrassed such Prottys into silence relentlessly and instantly.

I really don’t get it.

Mystifying.

[Mad Dawg]

Thanks. Our gardening is limited to a few scrawny tomato plants and a variety of peppers. It’s fine for us. I like doing my Japanese garden thing, (I have some 20 year old pines that are beginning to look good!) and the boss-lady likes general weeding and stuff. I guess the Episcopal in us is coming out. We’re not useful, just aesthetic.

[Quix]

No sweat.

I love Japanese gardens, too.

[papertyger]

Neither of those two scriptures mention an institutional church or hierarchy, in fact, in the Matthew 18 passage the church Jesus describes is an informal (”where two or three are gathered together in my name there am I in the midst”) assembly.

Hardly. The process becomes more formal as the internal threat becomes more pronounced and intransigent.

Also bear in mind, the word of God Himself is made of no effect if there is no institutional Church and the guy so disciplined can go down the street to "another" church.

Although “Trinity” is not stated the doctrine is explicit in the scriptures.

I have to question the credibility of one who claims the doctrine of the Trinity is "explicit" in the Scriptures despite its absence, while maintaining there's no evidence for the institutional Church despite its presence.

There was no central controlling body or person in the early churches as witness Paul’s problems in Corinth and in his letter to the Philippian church.

Then by what authority did Paul presume to correct their "problems?"

I don't remember Apollos being an Apostle.

And I don't see how that changes that Scripture's silence on Apostolic succession.

[Quix]

Also bear in mind, the word of God Himself is made of no effect if there is no institutional Church and the guy so disciplined can go down the street to "another" church.

NONSENSE.

Christ is NEVER hogtied by man's actions or failures to act. He has abundant options we can't conceive of as well as the capacity to create unlimited options.

As David said . . . where could he go that God was not already there.

Holy Spirit is very faithful to birddog anyone claiming to be Christian. NO ONE escapes in the slightest degree.

God's mercy may make it appear that He is a poor behavior mod psychologist. However, His Wisdom, mercy and justice are perfectly combined and administered REGARDLESS of the proximity of any formalized hierarchical Christian structure, or not.

Actually, in my experience, the hierarchical bureaucratic structures of the RC's as well as a host of similar Protty structure usually conspire to cover-over rather than Biblically discipline anyone--particularly the bureaucratic hierarchy themselves.

Some of the Pentecostal/charismatic groups have been doing much better the last 10-20 years with horribly acting out pastors. But I think that's a drop in the bucket compared to what's likely needed.

Nevertheless, GOD administers HIS OWN DISCIPLINES regardless of whether anyone in any congregational or denominational leadership follows through, or not. No one escapes God's search-light and NO ONE escapes God's disciplines. The delay in the falling hammer may temporarily give the illusion of escape. But it is a very dumb assumption to construe that one has escaped God's disciplines.

[Mad Dawg]

All others are servants. Do the words "Servus servorum dei" mean anything to you?

(I don't mean that as aggressively as it may sound. It's just that I remember with delight "Amos n' Andy".)

I hereby, in the face of obviousness, admit that a whole chunk of clergy kind of forgot what "minister" means and how it is related to "minus" and all that.

I will say that in my days as a PepsiColian priest, my oft professed (probably Pharisaically and self-righteously, may God forgive me) insistence that we were the servants and not the bosses was met mostly with hoots and hollers from the brethren and sistren -- when it came down to questions of obedience and self-abnegation.

But at least in principle, and sometimes, by the grace of God, in practice, the occasional clergy-dude will act like what he is, a servant, even in the Catholic Church, even in the Vatican.

If I have a point, it's that the Holy Father and all those other guys, at least formally and sometimes actually, insist that they are servants, as you say.

[Mad Dawg]

For an brief, intelligent account of the Refomraiton from an RC POV, I cannot recommend enough:

Adam, Karl; Roots of the Reformation, Coming HOme Resources, Zanesville, Ohio, 2000 - but from lectures given in 1947.

Short answer: There was a LOT of corruption going on.

[Quix]

I actually believe you on those points.

It’s nice that you can see the . . . discrepancy between th ideal and the lived realities on the part of probably too many—in all denominations, BTW.

[papertyger]

NONSENSE. Christ is NEVER hogtied by man's actions or failures to act. He has abundant options we can't conceive of as well as the capacity to create unlimited options. As David said . . . where could he go that God was not already there. Holy Spirit is very faithful to birddog anyone claiming to be Christian. NO ONE escapes in the slightest degree. God's mercy may make it appear that He is a poor behavior mod psychologist. However, His Wisdom, mercy and justice are perfectly combined and administered REGARDLESS of the proximity of any formalized hierarchical Christian structure, or not. Actually, in my experience, the hierarchical bureaucratic structures of the RC's as well as a host of similar Protty structure usually conspire to cover-over rather than Biblically discipline anyone--particularly the bureaucratic hierarchy themselves. Some of the Pentecostal/charismatic groups have been doing much better the last 10-20 years with horribly acting out pastors. But I think that's a drop in the bucket compared to what's likely needed. Nevertheless, GOD administers HIS OWN DISCIPLINES regardless of whether anyone in any congregational or denominational leadership follows through, or not. No one escapes God's search-light and NO ONE escapes God's disciplines. The delay in the falling hammer may temporarily give the illusion of escape. But it is a very dumb assumption to construe that one has escaped God's disciplines.

All of which evades the point that Jesus told us what to do in certain circumstances, and Protestant denominationalism has made those instructions as useless as "corban" made the commandment to honor father and mother.

[Mad Dawg]

Again, you are only asking for my blood and marrow.

We've got a Martin and Coy situation going on here.

We are each called to die daily.

Suppose you were a Martin or a Coy. And suppose you had heard Christ whisper (or bellow, as He has been known to do) in your heart. What would you be willing to give up for peace?

In the great and paradoxical words of Adlai Stevenson, "We must all go MORE than halfway to meet one another."

I think that unless we do that, and realize and accept that we will be shot at for doing it, there will not be peace.

I cannot control how someone else posts. I am such a sinner I can barely control how I post.

I can pray "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us," and I can ask God to help me mean it.

And then, knowing me, I will cannon-ball right back into the mire and spread mud and filth everywhere.

I thank God for being more patient with me than they guy in the parable so that when I grasp someone by the throat and scream, "Pay what you owe!" God does not cast me into a prison. Now I beg Him to release me from the prison into which I cast myself at every opportunity.

I hope that's an answer.

[Quix]

It’s a sufficient, wise and Christian answer.

And that’s fine.

No, it doesn’t answer my perverse curiosities but that’s probably quite fittingly so.

Thanks thanks.

I pretty much agree, BTW.

[Quix]

Though I would hasten to add

peace at any price is not peace and not worth the price.

[Quix]

HOGWASH.

[Mad Dawg]

I present myself to God before my brethren, Catholic and otherwise, as one in deep, uh, potty language, and reaching up to Jesus for deliverance.

Anybody who presents himself for any kind of official role in the Church, whatever he takes "the Church" to be, and who cannot smell the (well, potty language is forbidden, but maybe the RM understands what a pigsty smells like) clinging to him and the utter and grotesqueness to the point of burlesque of his presenting himself as a quasi shepherd of a piece of the flock is in grave spiritual peril.

I keep forgetting which Pope is was who said upon his election, around the time of Luther, "The papacy at least is ours; Let us at least enjoy it."

But whoever he was, that was a guy who seemed to have missed the "die daily" part.when you're as great as I am uh, I mean when you get to be the presider over a group of people in a situation which can foster a pathological dependency. A lot of people fail at it.

The Catholic POV is that one proof of the Divine institution of our outfit is that it has endured for a long time despite the bozos who seem to end up in important positions in it.

[Quix]

I agree with you quite strongly except for the last paragraph! LOL.

I think the spiritual truths you articulated are quite important in God’s eyes.

However, MD, have you known anyone able to . . . maintain that . . . sensitive an . . . olafactory . . . spirituality . . .

who has NOT

been through a number of DEEPLY AND PROTRACTED long dark nights of the soul and fiery furnaces? ???

I don’t. And even many who have . . . seem to forget overmuch over soon—depending on the intensity and duration and frequency of such traumas.

I also think that farming has a way of reminding folks with half a brain and one eye open the clay whereof they were dug.

[Mad Dawg]

Thank you for your generous words.

peace at any price is not peace and not worth the price.

10-4

But this is not a great price. We are not talking about changing the lines of battle. We are talking more about having civil discourse.

The troops will still be where they were. But well ...

I have tried before to say what I think is admirable in Calvin's thought. I see the excellence of the JW's insistence on the personal quality of God, a needed rebuke to Deists, and the JW insistence on an echatological strand in Christianity, even though I have watched two JW parents sentence their own child to death because they wouldn't countenance a blood transfusion on what still strikes me as entirely bogus, allegedly Sola Scriptura thinking.

I try to remember, and mostly I fail, that the Truth saves us, we do not save the Truth. And HE will prevail. It's not in doubt. Consequently we can be magnanimous soldiers, since we serve a victorious emperor.

[Quix]

This is simply false. The Bible as we know it is a direct result of the efforts and actions of the RCC.

WHAT A FARCE OF A NOTION.

GOD PRODUCED THE NEW TESTAMENT VIA HUMAN SCRIBES ~400 years before the RC org reared its outrageously political power-mongering bureaucratic committee plagued head. It clearly had nothing to do with Pebble Peter and has since demonstrated in abundant horrific ways that much of the time it had little to do with Christ Jesus. Which has appeared to be quite fine from the perspective of the RC Magicsterical preferring the Mary Caricature and the White Hanky brigade to Jesus, anyway.

One does not "diminish" a thing by using it as it was intended.

Ahhhhhhh, supplanting the authentic Scriptures with the RC Magicsterical Mangled Alice In Wonderland School of Theology RUBBERIZED ‘PSEUDO-SCRIPTURES’ is using the authentic Bible as ‘intended?’ ROTFLOL! GUFFAWS TO THE MAX!

Rather, using the Bible, which Christ did not establish, to diminish the authority of the Church, which Christ DID establish, is nothing more that a byzantine replay of The Fall.

Incredible anti-reality strikes again. Prottys only use authentic UNRUBBERIZED solid translations of genuine New Testament Scriptures. I suspect many would be happy to lend some to any RC’s wondering what the authentic is like.

The Church prospered prior to the advent of the printing press, and it's existence does not now, nor has it ever, depended on a collection of documents; the Protestant rebellion however, does.

Holy Spirit blessed various congregations around and spreading out from the Med from Christ’s time to this. Occasionally, there were even some RC congregations that actually worshipped God instead of a dead institution and proffered pagan rituals and idols.

Thankfully, Paul’s letters and The Gospels as well as the rest of the authentic Holy Spirit vetted New Testament was familiar to most such congregations quite independent of the Roman magicsterical mangling machine manipulating political events to lord it over all Christendom to the best of its considerable militarily supported ability in such matters.

Thankfully, most Prottys have not been in rebellion against God nor the things of God but have found it incumbent upon them to fiercely stand against horrific mangling of authentic Scriptures as well as against outrageously destructive fantasies about proper Christian beliefs and practices fostered and promulgated by the power-mongering RC org politically motivated and politically operated Roman Magicsterical.

No, it's my position He instituted a Church with attendant authority and hierarchy to be His voice on Earth

WOW. The heretical Rubber history and unbiblical nonsense continues to be flung far and wide. Thankfully, the historically well read and Biblically accurate folks can see through such a farce of a statement. The RC org has the least claim to such an authority of any self-proclaimed Christian org on the face of the planet.

not a book. Men would not abide by that so they gathered up their intellectual jewels and built themselves a philosophical golden calf.

Incredible. Calling the authentic Scriptures a ‘philosophical golden calf’ has to be one of the most irrational, horrific, awful fantasies I’ve come across in decades.

At some point, words fail me. It’s hard for me to fathom where the depths of such outrageous statements come from apart from knowledge of the enemy of our souls and of true Christianity.

[Religion Moderator]

The insinuation that I lie like Goebbels is very personal.

The statement at 9826 was in reference to 9823 which was in reference to 9805.

It was not "making it personal" - you evidently took it personally and then "made it personal" at 9827.

Taking it personally is a form of "thin skin" which is not tolerable on "open" threads. Toughen up or leave the thread.

[Quix]

It sure looks like the list of absurdities masquerading as pseudo-rational posting are continuing apace via the RC org's reps--to wit:

I certainly can not stop anyone from "burning incense" to the brazen serpent they make out of the Bible,

Evidently this perspective was hatched on the Planetoid Pluto in the dark of night.

I don't think I've ever observed nor heard of ANY Protty burning incense or anything remotely metphorically akin to burning incense to The Bible.

'Brazen serpent' ???? out of The Bible??? sounds like the RC fantasized hogwash has escalated out of this galactic neighborhood. I gather Dr Phil would be stumped. I'm not sure even Dr James Dobson would have a solution. We are clearly no longer dealing with reality. We aren't even dealing with fantasies about the Matrix version of reality. It's a wonder words can even be used at all in describing such chaotic fantasies of the RC org.

but I do find it most amusing to see those who screech the loudest about Mary supplanting the honor due to God alone, and rhetorically rend their garments over the doctrine of "The Real Presence," pontificate on imaginary attributes of the Bible out of nothing more than their own cultic leanings.

As near as research can determine, the above fantasized construction on irrational UNreality originated in the depths of the RC org's old fashioned bound RUBBER ENCYCLOPEDIA now scanned in and available online. Supposedly, the encyclopedia was created by the imprinting of St F of Assisi’s bird friends walking across black ink stamp pads and then parading across and doing square dances on various very starched White Hankies.

It took the RC org many centuries to decipher the resulting bird idiograph based language but it was finally achieved by a group of political power-mongers meeting in committee with lavish amounts of sacramental wine. Some RC magicsterical members are convinced that the RC decipherment of the bird scratching idiographs makes much more sense than their fantasies about The Bible. Who are Prottys to argue about that! LOL.

Man had nothing to do with instituting it. It's just a fact of CREATION, OF ALL THAT IS. It's a fact of The Father's design vis a vis The Son without Whom was nothing Created.

Excuse me? Are we talking about the Bible here, or Manna? Denying man's involvement with the formation of the Bible is simply a denial of reality on par with CS Lewis' proverbial man claiming to be a poached egg.

CLEARLY the RELIGIOUS FANTASIES HAVE fallen down Alice's rabbit hole and transited from there via a very wormy hole to THE MATRIX of the Ferengi's home galaxy. Any hint of a semblance of rational thought presumed to be imprinted on the above words is purely accidental in any language.

GOD ALONE could have insured that the relationship between THE LIVING WORD CHRIST JESUS and the CONTENT of the written text was a supernatural, dynamic, living, eternal life giving reality. Any denial of that fact will have to confront His displeasure at some point.

Mistaken delusions of disinformation to the contrary--evidently originating out of a desperately inadequate apprehension of authentic UNRUBBERIZED BIBLICAL realities--MUST have been spawned out of a fierce disrespect for THE LIVING WORD--in the person of Jesus The Christ as well as in the CONTENT of the written text--rumor has it--the disrespect and demotion of both in such a fantasized construction on reality was fostered by an obsessive compulsive addiction to fondling and sucking on the corners of a flock of sugar coated White Hankies which mysteriously appear on the night of full moons in the Sistine Chapel on all the anniversaries of the very falsely concocted Mary Caricature phony dogmas.

All who earnestly seek God’s face find Him. All who have received Christ’s Blood covering as Salvation and covering for their sins have some measure of Holy Spirit leading them; seeking to lead them into closer fellowship and obedience to Him.

Again with the Korahish conceits.

Shocking how such BIBLICAL TRUTHS STRAIGHTFORWARDLY quoted can garner such off the wall labeling. Alas, the RC magicsterical of political power-mongers meeting in committee is rumored to have subcommittees devoted exclusively to falsifying Biblical truths and then spreading them about liberally for the destructive DISedification of likely RELIGIOUS serf victims.

SHOCKING, indeed.

[Mad Dawg]

I was recently explaining to my pastor how farming has been so helpful to me in many spiritual issues.

Yes, about dark nights of the soul. I must say that that is so much of a commonplace in Catholic thought and experience that we were (or at least my homies and I) not surprised at Mother Theresa's feelings of abandonment and uselessness and all that.

St. Francis saw that his order would be all institutionalized and made all offishul and everything, and struggled (so I read some 30+ years ago in what struck me as the most credible and authoritative biography of "our Seraphic Father") with darkness as his life drew to a close.

We are called, we are GRACED with the call to die daily. Even if all of the ability to comply with the call comes from God, it is not easy. Many, some who are officially clergy, will turn from that call, for a while or for their whole lives.

IN a way that has NOTHING to do with us. WE still have OUR call to die daily.

I'm sure in your training and work you've been with people as they die. So have I. It's different. Some just slowly stop breathing. Some have an "agony". But I for one, am not inclined to bold up a score card like the judges at the Olympic diving competition. Hey! The poor SOB's are dying! That's enough, isn't it? Now we're going to critique HOW they die?