Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
INDEED.
And all the demons in hell; all the pontifical RELIGIOUS leaders of the magicsterical committees 2,000 years ago; 1600 years ago; 500 years ago; currently . . .
Can rant, rave, rush around in long robes screaming and screaching in irate tones; throw dust in the air; throw pontifical organizational ecclesiastical magicsterical threats, curses, excommunications, anathemas and damnations in the air; throw their beads about and stamp angrily on their White Hankies . . . over such prayers and such dramatic answers to such prayers . . .
And the only thing such will avail is incurring for themselves more of God's displeasure.
They'd do better to heed Gamalial's advice to the magicsterical 2000 years ago.
INDEED.
Particularly loving folks into The Kingdom in sacrificial servant-hearted deeds matching their words.
The angry and personal responses on this thread make one wonder .... what’s the big anger about, methinks?
Your post here addresses wolves in sheeps clothing really well.
These threads are great when there is a real discussion, but when it degenerates it makes me take pause of Religion with a capital R.
I still have never received an answer to one of my posts, oh somehwere between 80001 and now,ha..where I asked the questions: WHICH Bible? whose translation? And how does one respond to the fact that the bible was written by men LONG after Jesus was off the earth. How do we translate Aramaic or Greek..is it the King James version?
I guess I will ask Holy Mother Mary to pray for me for wisdom. and I will also ask my dear departed mother to pray for me for wisdom and my struggles here.
So which one do we follow?
Snake handling or laying on of hands?
And is not laying on of hands a form of prayer? why not just pray directly to Jesus? why pray amongst us living saints and those who are of the saints that have departed and are with God in Heaven?
No, The Scriptures were NOT penned long after Jesus left the earth bodily.
We have fragments from the time when the witnesses to the events were still alive.
I’ve never been in a laying-on-of-hands session
where all involved were
NOT
praying directly to Jesus.
Let me say it this way . . .
In EVERY laying-on-of-hands session (out of thousands) that I’ve ever been in—all participants have ALWAYS been praying directly to Jesus . . . unless one would count the occasional demonized person who was praying directly to satan.
Also, it seems to have been missed that the Apostle Paul’s demonstration of proper snake handling has been cited.
To wit—IF a snake gets you, shake it off in the fire and go on about your Kingdom business confident in God’s dealing with any medical aspects of it.
That’s it . . . totally . . . about snake handling. There is NO tempting God nor the snakes aspect to the Biblical treatment of the topic.
Your post here addresses wolves in sheeps clothing really well.
= = =
HOGWASH.
>>excuse me...the church of Rome? are we going to get insulting now.<<
I was quoting someone else with “the church of Rome”
Except that snake handling is only legal in W Va.
So which one do we follow?
Snake handling or laying on of hands?
And is not laying on of hands a form of prayer? why not just pray directly to Jesus? why pray amongst us living saints and those who are of the saints that have departed and are with God in Heaven?
When people lay hands on a person, nobody is praying THROUGH anybody else. What is the point of your question?
they did a lot of things back in before 2000 BC...snake handling is just absolutely bizzarre!
If you are collecting wood for a fire in Minnesota, then, you'd better do it in a snake-free region. If one latches on to your hand, you're going to handle it, you see, even if it isn't legal.
So, in that case as Quix advises, throw it into the fire and do not seek medical treatment?
The only example given to us in this regard is that the Apostle Paul had a venomous serpent latch on to his hand (Acts 28), and the local people watched for him to swell up and die, and found that he didn't, and then figured God must be protecting him. It looks like that “sign” followed him all the way to that barbarian island, doesn't it?
I don't go around looking for signs, but history is replete with servants of God who have experienced miracles. We believe in miracles. We've seen one of our daughters healed of a major medical condition very directly in answer to prayer (prayer directly to God in Jesus’ Name). We've seen deliverances, and we've seen God miraculously “blind” the eyes of some anti-Christian authorities who would otherwise put an end to our labours.
This is why we said in another post that it's just a wee bit too late to try to convince us that our prayers will go unanswered if we “don't understand the origins” of someone's earthly, visible religious organization. The anathema was pronounced upon us, but like other old nags, it was late getting out of the gate.
I can only tell you that I have seen venomous snake bites, and venomous spider bites, and bees and wasps swarm individuals in remote missionary areas, where medical help is not available, and people dropped to their knees and prayed (in Jesus’ Name), and the life spared. I saw a case where a man was bleeding so bad that no first aid treatment would stop it, and there was no doctor or medical facility within 50 miles. Christians fell on their faces and prayed, and the bleeding stopped. We can tell bunches of incidents that were taken care of under believing prayer.
You can call me a cook, or you can think anything you want. But I've prayed over old car motors that shouldn't be able to pull their own weight, hooked up a 6,000 pound house trailer, and got to where I needed to go. And I believe that, too, was direct answer to prayer.
What glorious hope—to have all my stubble burned away!
If you want a defense of the Church of Rome--whatever that is--you should find one of it's members.
My faith is that of the Catholic Church, the one founded by Christ Himself, circa AD 32.
So, now we've moved on from Minnesota... okay, whatever.
My point is someone who is bringing 'serpents' into a house of worship for 'handling' and praying in tongues hardly has room to mock someone else's religion.
And no, I didn't call you a 'cook'.
And in the large context it seems to me to be a kind of indication of a problem with the joint principles of " (ecumenical)councils can err" and "sola Scriptura". The Arminians and the Calvinists can't both be right, and they seem to think th difference important enough to split and to stay apart over. So maybe, just maybe, there's a good reason to push something like a magisterium to go along with one's Bible, and maybe, just maybe, there is evidence that Sola Scriptura leads not to unity in Christ but to division.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.