Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
This is the one who recently called me the “no answer man,” ironically one post after I answered his burning question.
He often did this to confuse and belittle His Disciples, or so I've been informed here.
They really don’t even read your answers.
They only have hate for the Catholic Church that they wish to feed. The entire basis of their religious faith is a limited knowledge of Holy Scripture centered on a few selected verses that have been misinterpreted after being extracted from the entirety of Divine Revelation, leaving them with a false and manipulated belief contrary to the Truth of Jesus Christ.
Only a few have hatred in their hearts, especially toward Christ’s Church. The remainder are just misguided but full of love for Christ. It is that love of Christ that gives me hope for many of them and leads me to pray fervently for them to convert and come home to Christ instead of opposing Him.
Aramaic with a bit of Hebrew and Greek. I'm the one who pointed out the Aramaic word "Kepha" to you.
This is in exact correspondence to the original Greek text:
I was quoting you.
Indeed... The 'stones', that like Peter, are are called by Jehovah to confess that Christ is the Messiah, are the parts and pieces of the Church which is to be built upon the 'foundation' stone of Christ Himself.
LOL
Fact is, being True God as well as True Man, He could have spoken whatever language He wanted. It is reasonable to assume He spoke what His listeners would understand.
...he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
This is wisdom, brother.
You said: Fact is, being True God as well as True Man, He could have spoken whatever language He wanted. It is reasonable to assume He spoke what His listeners would understand.
When one overcomes the notion that Christ is limited and must conform to a man made and limited nature, one realizes that in the one Christ all things are possible..not only those things that we wish so as to avoid His Church. (eg. Eucharist)
In the end, the iconoclasts preach the another Christ, not the Christ.
[This is a damnable lie.]
Amazing the emotional outbursts that the Truth causes.
It has the same effect as sprinkling with Holy Water.
Then someone should tell Padre Pio he's leading all these high-fiving FR Roman Catholics astray.
It has been written, and rightly so, that "if there is an aspect of the mystery of Mary especially fitting to the life and work of Padre Pio of Pietrelcina, it is certainly the coredemptive aspect of the person and mission of the Immaculate in God's salvific plan of love"..
This essay is truly an astounding example of what the RCC teaches and what Roman Catholics believe. Consider the following...
"...In this exceptional mystical experience he co-immolated himself with Christ, assimilating himself in a most extensive and profound manner to the Mother Coredemptrix who immolates herself with the Son on the Cross in order to bring to pass the universal Redemption..."
WHEW!
With all that "immolating" going on, it's a wonder the thread doesn't spontaneously burst into flames!
As God wills.
(((chuckle)))
This essay is truly an astounding example of what the RCC teaches and what Roman Catholics believe.
Perhaps the RCC teaches this, but the Catholic Church does not. Or maybe you're holding back that citation to the Catechism of the Catholic Church? Or can you only link to other Free Republic threads?
Free Republic does not set Catholic Dogma either.
It would seem that like Mohammedenism, Calvinists are authorized to “lie for Jesus.”
PAPERTYPGER: That's a very nice thought, but what does it mean in practical terms? Is it not simply "feeling" on your part?
No, it's more than nice. It's exactly how God tells us He is going to interact with His family on earth.
It is also more than a feeling. It is an understanding that transforms lives and produces good fruit because the believer has been shown to be a good tree, planted by God.
The Roman Catholic has no assurance they are saved because they believe God's forgiveness for their sins lasts only until they sin again, and thus another confession is required.
Thankfully, those who believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior know with their mind as well as their heart that every one of their sins has already been paid for by Jesus Christ on the cross.
Read Hebrews 10.
"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." -- 1 Corinthians 1:18
“co-immolated himself with Christ”
Wowwwy...I thought gnosticism was dead....
I thought Christ was with the Father before creation began and that Christ himself consented to make himself lower than the angels...but this phrase speaks of a subtle separation...
A poet once referred to Christ as God’s thumb print pressed into matter, who while having his own personhood in one sense, in another this person hood being literally that of the Father and breathed upon by the Spirit. And all this was even before everything was created. Christ was the Word
made flesh, not just Word “co-immolated with Christ” after the fact (as stated from John 1:14).
There is a real important difference in the two...Word(God)made FLESH vs. Word(God) co-immolated with Christ.
Where did God tell us that, and where does He explain what it means?
1Co 1:18 For the word of the cross, to them indeed that perish, is foolishness: but to them that are saved, that is, to us, it is the power of God.
ICR 6:66
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