Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
AMEN!
These thread are actually very instructive. Most Protestants have no idea of the extent and depth of the deception in the RCC regarding "other mediators" and "other dispensers of grace" and "another Christ."
"Here are the fifteen promises of Mary to Christians who recite the rosary."
Where in the Bible does Mary "promise" anything to anyone?
Fables and lies, based on the pagan beliefs in the goddesses Isis and Cybele.
"Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means."
Men sanctify themselves?!?
Whether the RCC acknowledges it or not, it tries to usurp the office of the Holy Spirit at every turn.
No small error, as Christ warned.
Could be the reason is that the Catholic Church would not permit the average person to read the scriptures alone in their native language during the Middle Ages.
I don't see this supported by the article you posted.
But it is an okay statement to make when one is speaking loosely.
De MOnfort speaks VERY loosely. I'm pretty sure that the list of goodies that come with the rosary is from "The Secret of the Rosary". It would be useful if one were to read, in that same book, what de Montfort says about the Lord's Prayer.
The first thing you'd dope out is that the boy is no systematic theologian, and it's as silly to hold him up to rigorous analysis as it is to condemn for Pelagianism someone who says "Prayer works."
LOL. Good catch. From the mouths of knaves.
Now be prepared to be told anything found on New Advent isn't "official" church doctrine.
than I. Not familiar with him, really.
However, Dear Heart, I think glossing over his rank/non-rank in the hierarchy misses the point.
Such documents are more than a little plentiful in RC-dom. And masses of RC's scarf such stuff up as Holy Writ.
My sense of you is that you are aware of such phenomena. And that it's not 100% limited to the uneducated, unthinking, 'lowest'-of-the-religious-serfs of RC-dom either.
There seems to be a blind gah-gah-ness that causes some folks' eyes to gloss over and their brains to take a vacation whenever the Mary Caricature is invoked.
I've seen a similar phenomenon with a very small fraction of Pentecostals when Kenneth Hagin's name was invoked. But they usually got over it when someone wiser around them exhorted them to knock it off.
The folks going gah-gah over the Mary Caricature don't get over it.
1. Doesn't seem to be many wise and exhortive around noting the need to KNOCK IT OFF.
2. Many seem to turn a deaf ear if there is someone like that wandering by.
Dreadful, from Protty perspectives.
Thanks for the kind affirmation.
I did respond to it. My point, which you must have missed, is that Christian doctrine is NOT THAT COMPLICATED. So there is no need for the Pope to keep developing it. What you have done is invented a need to “develop doctrine” by inventing complexity that is not part of Christianity. The gospel is simple. The papist rejects simplicity and defends the concept of development and finds the bible lacking.
What does the stiff-necked snake handler do? Embrace simplemindedness?
And you even REPEAT that statement, as if it contained truth rather than wormwood meant to lull the listener into a perilously ignorant stupor!?! I would have thought that one sentence would be glossed over, hopefully to be ignored or remain unseen.
But you HIGHLIGHT it!!!
Do you really not see anything wrong with a bureaucracy going so far as to prohibit you from reading the word of God for any reason?
Christ was right. Men love the darkness.
The word of God is not subservient to the church. The church is subservient to the word of God.
We learn that in the Bible through the guidance of the indwelling Holy Spirit, so it's no wonder the RCC works to curtail the reading of the Scriptures.
Deny the Bible; deny the Holy Spirit.
It's always interesting to note that of the 33 chapters of the WESTMINSTER CONFESSION OF FATH the very first one is "Of the Holy Scriptures" while "Of the Church" is #25...
1. IV. - The authority of the Holy Scripture, for which it ought to be believed, and obeyed, depends not upon the testimony of any man, or Church; but wholly upon God (who is truth itself) the author thereof: and therefore it is to be received, because it is the Word of God.
"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." -- John 5:39
"Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path...The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple." -- Psalm 119:105,130
"It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." -- John 6:45
Calvinists call themselves Christians, by the grace of God.
Since RCs seem to prefer the title of Catholic to Christian, I'm not sure what Catholics call themselves.
It's interesting to note that Calvin called his great opus, "Institutes of the Christian Religion" while the RCC catechism is called the "Catechism of the Catholic Church."
AMEN!
And why do some men embroil the truth with a complexity that is not there? So as to make themselves indispensable to those who foolishly choose to hand over their salvation to men and magisteriums rather than relying on God's word and the guidance of the Holy Spirit and the finished work of Christ risen from the cross.
Just like the U.S. Constitution is not an evolving work, neither is Scripture and the God-breathed doctrines found within. Truth does not evolve. It declares.
"The Church, instituted by the Lord and confirmed by the Apostles, is one for all men; but the frantic folly of the diverse impious acts sects has cut them off from her. It cannot be denied that this tearing asunder of the faith has arisen from the defect of poor intelligence, which twists what is read to conform to its opinion, instead of adjusting its opinion to the meaning of what is read. However, while individual parties fight among themselves, the Church stands revealed not only by her own doctrines, but by those also of her adversaries. And although they are all arranged against her, she confutes the most wicked error which they all share, by the very fact that she is alone and One.Saint Hilary of Poitiers... The Trinity, 7:4, 356 A.D.. Jurgens 865All the heretics, therefore, come against the Church; but while all the heretics can conquer each other, they can win nothing for themselves. For their victory is the triumph of the Church over all of them. One heresy struggles against that teaching of another, which the faith of the Church has already condemned in the other heresy, - for there is nothing which the heretics hold in common, ' and the result is that they affirm our faith while fighting among themselves."
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.I Timothy 3:15
You mean "...prohibit you from reading the word of God in the vernacular for any reason...", right?
25.VI. There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ.[13] Nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalts himself, in the Church, against Christ and all that is called God.[14]
Works? Present tense? Why does this "RCC" do this?
Good thing the Catholic Church does no such thing.
Go back and read #1-5. It will do you good.
But thanks for quoting from the WCF of 1646. Splendid, Scriptural document.
You consider calling the Pope the antichrist “splendid.”
For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus" -- 1 Thess. 2:13-14 "For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
First a man is regenerated by the Holy Spirit to receive the word of God in truth, and then that man becomes a member of Christ's church on earth. However, that man's election to salvation by Christ's redemption was ordained by God from before the foundation of the world according to His own good pleasure for His glory.
"But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." -- Matthew 4:4 "Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God." -- Matthew 22:29
And as is so often the case, when looking for one answer we find others. Look at what Christ says about your "service" to Mary...
"Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." -- Matthew 4:10
lol. I don’t recall the RCC handing out Latin copies of the Bible to plowboys.
You don't recall? Were you alive then?
Prior to the printing press, Bibles were handmade and ludicrously expensive. The first Bible printed mechanically was the Vulgate.
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