Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
The vast majority of Protestants don't harbor this hatred for Mary, the Saints and Catholics in general.They do not name you, they were not posted to you, yet you take offense? How . . . revealing.
It's a sociopathic fetish, hopefully to be covered by DSM-V.
Yes you can. You can even pretend the Catholic Church is only 1600 years old.
I still can't stand that chain smoking ugly old man.
You can also pretend that the average person living during the Middle Ages who wouldn't earn enough money in his lifetime to purchase a Bible, and couldn't read it if he could, was a devoted practitioner of "sola scriptura."
I also find it curious why it is that, if the Catholic Church was somehow "created by the Roman emperors" at the First Council of Nicea and the Council of Ephesus these councils have NEVER been rejected by Protestantism (though most would prefer to pretend that the Blessed Mother was declared to be Theotokos at Ephesus).
For future gems of wisdom be certain to change the words slightly using the "key word" generator. "Diss" and "bash" come to mind.
Curiouser and curiouser.
I received a reply from "papertyger" which had no relationship whatsoever with the subject. Par for the course.
To: OLD REGGIE
What is the difference between "coredemptrix" and "mediatrix"?
There is something fundamentally disordered about one who tries to get another to feel guilt for stealing something that other knows he didn't steal.
8,983 posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 4:48:55 PM by papertyger (Gun control laws make as much sense as giving condoms to a pregnant teen.)
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I will, once again, ask the question which has never been answered. Inane and juvenile insults are not answers.
What is the difference between "coredemptrix" and "mediatrix"?
“You can also pretend that the average person living during the Middle Ages who wouldn’t earn enough money in his lifetime to purchase a Bible, and couldn’t read it if he could, was a devoted practitioner of “sola scriptura.”
Could be the reason is that the Catholic Church would not permit the average person to read the scriptures alone in their native language during the Middle Ages. Look for “scripture” at “newadvent.org”.
62.89 Religious or Spiritual problem in DSM IV. A "V" code, I believe.
To facilitate this they developed the theory of sola scriptura
False! A baseless fiction.
It's a good thing we have a lot of sand bags here in Iowa, cuz I need to empty one out and barf in it.
Who is that?
...should be aware that a complete claim must be true for the claim to be true.
That is a separate, second claim.
NO!
The average person who could read during the Middle Ages could read Latin. Because ALL books had to be inscribed by hand, the cost was incredibly high with very long waits. The only people who could afford books were the very wealthy and they were generally better-educated. ANYONE with formal education would have been fluent in Latin and Greek (in reality, everyone with a university education was fluent in Latin, Greek and often Hebrew until at least the 19th century).
Literacy changed with the advent of the printing press, at that time the Church responded by properly translating Scripture into other languages.
The Church NEVER prohibited ANYONE from reading the Bible, they only forbade unauthorized translations. The Wycliffe translation was considered so flawed that it wasn't even considered by the committee that did the translation for the King James Version.
The thing about the Papist religion...it's hugh. It's really really hugh and in a lot of ways. Not only are there a billion people in it, there is a vast network of doctrines and mysticisms and rituals. Why it's like, magic in D&D. So a Papist can be completely imersed in Marianism or in the pro life movement, or in his favorite saint, or in the knights of columbus, or in the general friendship of the people he meets at mass or in the study of any other arcane mystery. It's hugh and complicated and it appeals to people that are fascinated by the hugh and complicated. None of this is good. It's artificial. The gospel is simple and I've heard one papist after another offended by simplicity as if that is intellectually inferior.
This is perfectly described in 1Corinthians 1 as the natural mind seeking wisdom. A discerning bible student is not the least impressed with the mystery or complexity of Rome.
Co-Redemptrix in Roman Catholic Mariology refers to the role of the Blessed Virgin Mary in the redemption process. It is a separate concept from Mediatrix.Mediatrix
The concept of Co-redemptrix refers to an indirect or unequal but important participation by the Blessed Virgin Mary in redemption. She gave free consent to give life to the redeemer, to share his life, to suffer with him under the cross and to sacrifice him for the sake of the redemption of humankind.
Mediatrix in Roman Catholic Mariology refers to the role of the Blessed Virgin Mary as a mediator in the salvation process. It is a separate concept from Co-Redemptrix.Perhaps your local community college or learning annex offers courses on the use of internet resources like wikipedia.
The concept of mediatrix has two meanings: Mary gave birth to the redeemer, who is the fountain of all grace. Therefore she participated in the mediating of grace. A second opinion states that Mary, assumed into heaven, participates in the mediating of divine graces of her son. Popes such as Leo XIII through Pius XII have traditionally supported both interpretations.
I think there's a difference . . . a significant difference, MD . . .
1. Prayer is specifically commanded in Scripture.
2. The focus of prayer in Scripture is explicitly specified in no uncertain terms.
3. There's clear indications that BIBLICAL PRAYER is NOT a vending machine exercise with a robotic God.
4. We are to pray always. God chooses His own answers in His own time in His own way. It's not a 'Jump through this prayer hoop in this fashion and out comes this machine vended result' regardless of how many Pentecostals may sometimes think and act that way.
5. Prayer is Biblically construed to be a conversation with God vs a vending machine ritual. There's not a 'tit-for-tat' element to it but a coming to Daddy with one's needs and trusting Daddy to do the right loving thing about them.
6. Biblically, there's NO, 'if I do this hoop jumping exercise in this way then God has to answer these specifics through Mary. There's nothing even remotely close to that.
7. There's not a shred of the magic talisman Mary Caricature stuff in ANY Biblical mentions of prayer.
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