Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
BTW How are you. Any progress towards your access problems?
It's not my job to keep you up to speed with this thread, particularly when you choose to comment on something you admit you don't know about,
I was always told "when your opponent is doing something stupid: let him."
So there you are!
Did you try describing it instead of actually refuting it that time, too?
***The concept of sola scriptura had been brought up by the Ebionites in the first century, so obviously Martin Luther did not conceive of it.
And that is exactly my point. I am constantly amazed at how many “knowledgeable” Catholics will make this claim.***
In their haste, many good people will mistake “invent” for “champion”. The concept is wrong; the Church obviously didn’t squash it the way it ought to have been.
Fixed it for you.
***Non-catholic does NOT mean non-Christian. You should know that...***
In my experience, it is largely coincidental, although not entirely exclusive. But in the end, it is not my call, it is His. But I wouldn’t bet the farm on it...
***BTW How are you. Any progress towards your access problems?***
My acquisition of a 12 passenger full size van seems somewhat stymied since the Big 2 don’t care about them and neither do the dealers. So we’re looking at an 8 passenger minivan. The Toyota Sienna and the Honda Odyssey seem to be the best so far.
The daily access is a no go, I’m afraid. I’m home today, so that I can discuss things in detail. Neither the management of this site nor Websense has contributed substantive suggestions as to access.
Functional illiteracy does seem to explain many of your deductions, as other have already pointed out.
***In their haste, many good people will mistake “invent” for “champion”. The concept is wrong; the Church obviously didn’t squash it the way it ought to have been.
True. In those days their killing methods were not very efficient.***
In the first century, Christians were concentrating more on being martyrs than on killing others.
Doctrine does not require Scriptural support. We do not subscribe to sola scriptura. Why can't you people understand that?
Nah, the Blessed Mother isn't asking for a check.
What does any of that have to do with the word blasphemeo?
I do not say Mary is "dead" as in "in hell". I'm saying she is physically dead (departed) and presumably in Heaven. But in any event, why would my salvation be dependent on Mary or what became of her? If the fact was that Mary was a sinner, as the Bible says, would all of humanity be doomed?
BWA HAHAHAHA! Pick any thread on news coverage re sexual abuse in the Catholic church, and survey the comments made by Catholics about the coverage received by any Protestant church re abuse. Had a Protestant posted what you're asserting, we'd be laughed off FR by the Catholics in a heartbeat!
Yeah, you were just jealous (LOL).
She's not dead.
But in any event, why would my salvation be dependent on Mary or what became of her?
I have no idea.
If the fact was that Mary was a sinner, as the Bible says...
Doesn't.
Credentials? LOL!
Christ instituted His church by His life and death and resurrection. All those whom God has given grace through faith in His Son and therefore believe in Christ as Lord and Savior are members of that church. Some churches are closer to the absolute truth of God, and some are very far away, indeed.
But that is the work of the devil, to claim that the profane (WCF) is sacred
No one says the WCF is "sacred." It is merely a Biblically-grounded study aid and declaration of the truth found in God's word. Since you cannot challenge its premise or its teaching, you defame it.
I have asked you several times on the practices of Reformed prayer and have met with silence.
That, of course, is another fabrication on your part. You have been given answers every time you concoct some semblance of a question. We are commanded to pray to God in everything we do in order to glorify Him and in gratitude for everything we have, which is all from Him.
Protestants, reformed or not, do not believe in the idolatrous practice of the RCC which encourages prayers to assorted dead people, rather than to God alone, as we are instructed in the Bible.
The Calvinists exalt themselves and claim that only they shall be saved.
No Calvinist states that or believes that lie. Only the elect will be saved, according to the will of God.
Do you deny that?
The glorification of Mary begins with God, through His angel Gabriel.
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