The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

[Ultra Sonic 007]

Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.

There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.

Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).

Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.

Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.

I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.

But do I WORSHIP them?

No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.

I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.

There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.

Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.

In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.

At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.

[tiki]

You beat me to it.

[tiki]

I guess it must be right if a lot of people believe it and it is on the internet.

[Quix]

I assume that a number of RC’s are quite capable of hating infanticide without hating the murderers. After all, Christ commands us to love our enemies.

I know that quite a number of us Prottys are, by God’s Grace capable of loving individuals while hating habits, customs, idolatries of every stripe etc.

The fact that hereon some RC’s seem to be unwilling and/or incapable of relating to Prottys from that perspective is fascinating, to a point.

The fact that some RC’s hereon DEMAND that Prottys accept and respect the RC’s description of the RC’s inner heart attitudes, motives, perspectives vis a vis Mary while refusing to accept Protty’s insistences that we do not hate any individual RC’s hereon . . . is further more than a little fascinating in it’s dukplicitousness.

It’s also an interesting experience of denial, group-think; in-group vs out-group hostilities etc.

My 2 cents, of course.

[OLD REGGIE]

Nor did I say it was.

I owe you an apology. After tracing all the way back to the 300's it became evident I confused a post from another as yours. (The first time ever.)

I offer my sincere apology.

[Quix]

Greatly appreciate your prayers and kind words.

[Uri’el-2012]

May Yahshua our wonderful Moshiac bless you and keep you, and may he
cause his face to shine upon you, and grant you his shalom. May our
master, who has already conquered sin, cover Yisrael with divine
protection. May her enemies be scattered and flattened, bowing at the
feet of Yahshua in teshuvah. May they be renewed before it is too late....

Blessings on you and yours

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua

[Judith Anne]

I’m just asking you, since there is such an issue about Catholics not being able to “interpret scripture for themselves” who interprets scripture for protestants? There’s a lot made of the fact the protestants are free to read and interpret scripture for themselves, right?

[Marysecretary]

Welcome back, old FRiend! I’ve missed your unique style.

[Marysecretary]

AMEN!

[Marysecretary]

Moi?

[Quix]

THANKS TONS for your kind words.

More importantly, thanks tons and tons and tons

for your masterful and Holy Spirit brilliance in doggedly coming up with the different thread categories to meet every need and sensibility.

I pray that God Himself is increasingly stern in a tough love way with folks who selfishly, arrogantly, parochially, blindly, narrowly DEMAND, INSIST that ONLY THEIR constructions on reality have FR’s permission for expression.

I’m prayerfully getting tougher with myself about any unnecessary divisiveness. However, that does not mean I won’t be just as forceful and fierce about the truth; about error; about sinful idolatries etc.

Some of us, by God’s Grace, really do have the capacity to deplore ideas, habits, practices, beliefs which we find in violent contradiction to Scripture and God’s Scriptural priorities

WITHOUT

feeling anything but caring, love toward the most fierce of our opponents.

That’s just a fact.

Playing political manipulation games with constructs like “hate” and “bigotry” are transparently duplicitous and horrid. Folks who do so are not fooling anyone and least of all God. Playing such games in a deliberately deadly assaultive way on the universal Body of Christ is not likely to amuse nor please our Heavenly Father.

And, some of us will be persistently tasked to speak up forcefully about such priorities.

God has a faithfulness out of His Love for us to gore all our sacred oxen. He uses events, circumstances, loved ones, even our sworn and committed enemies—everything in that faithful training of us.

In my experience, those authentic Christians

WHO

LOVE GOD FIRST, FOREMOST AND ALWAYS BEYOND ALL ELSE

will persistently say uncle, Yes, Lord, I repent, Lord; help me overcome and alter my behavior and heart attitudes, Lord. Help me keep the sacred cows slain, Lord.

Those who continue at some level in some corners of their person to maintain a death-grip on their sacred cows

will persistently throw dust in the air; wail, whine, rationalized, manipulate, control, play political games etc. . . . all for the most “RELIGIOUSLY RIGHTEOUS” sounding reasons.

But God sees through all such games.

And, so do a lot of simple, humble, flawed humans.

[Quix]

WRONG

again.

[Judith Anne]

No problem. These are looooong threads!

[Religion Moderator]

Thank you for the support on the thread tags. You might want to click on my profile page for all the latest.

Hopefully, all the Religion Forum posters will be able to find the "niche" that fits their personal need for worship and dialog. The objective is for all RF posters to have a voice without any one group dominating over the others.

[Quix]

AMEN! I agree in prayer with your prayer.

Likewise twice back at you and yours.

Let God arise and His enemies be scattered.

[Quix]

Thanks deeply for your kind words and email encouragements during my absence.

Health and wholeness to every cell and fiber of your body. May healing be full and complete or an organ donation more speedily available.

LUB

[Quix]

Thanks to you for all your gracious sacrificial doings for all of us and especially for The Kingdom of God.

Will check your home page again shortly.

RM: Hopefully, all the Religion Forum posters will be able to find the “niche” that fits their personal need for worship and dialog. The objective is for all RF posters to have a voice without any one group dominating over the others.

---

To my mind, observation and experience—that’s basic horse sense. I realize you have a more stable mind than a lot of the rest of us put together. But anyone should realize that or start over in kindergarten.

It’s fascinating that self-righteousness seems to be wedded to idolatry.

But most of us learn to put away childish things and grow up enough to realize that

OUR

family, block, neighborhood, congregation . . . whatever

simply

does

NOT

have a corner on absolute truth.

That ‘god,’ idol, perspective of thought and belief

is just toooooooooooooooooooo small for

ALMIGHTY GOD OF THE ANGEL ARMIES; OF THE BIBLE.

[OLD REGGIE]

Welcome back. (Though you never really went away). :)

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for sharing your insights and that beautiful Scripture!

So far, I haven't received a reply to point me in the right direction. And perhaps an "official" list with sources doesn't yet exist.

Your example is a great case-in-point that such a list would be very illuminating.

Marantha, Jesus!!!

[Quix]

I know, I know . . .

how can you miss me if I never go away! LOL.

Thanks for your kind words.

LUB