Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
He’s baaaaaccccckkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk!
My point is that functionally the two are hard to distinguish.
The loudest ones certainly do. It's a fetish. It's pathological.
Pot calling kettle black...
WeBa!
Thank you very much, my friend. Sorry about the timeout.
God bless.
Jim
Is ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS null and void?
Are all pronouncements of long gone dead and buried Popes null and void?
You're claiming I'm an anti-Catholic bigot?
*shrugs*
I honestly do not know. I can understand a desire to learn more about Mary and how she lived her life, being that she was the mother of our Messiah. I can even see how an immaculate quality, derived from the birth of Jesus and the infusion of the Holy Spirit, would be enough for some to consider her free of original sin.
But to put her equal with Jesus? Or, in some weird cases, to have Jesus's grace depend on her?
Kind of makes you scratch your head.
Find the Old Testament Scriptures Peter is referencing in Acts 1. Consider the famous passages concerning Lucifer in Isaiah. Read the explaination of the writer's reasoning in Hebrews concerning the Scriptural witness of Melchizedek.
In short, there is NO Scriptural evidence the kind of heurmanutics advocated by Bible-only Christians is actually used by the persons IN the Bible to understand the Bible they had at the time, so why should we give it any respect NOW?
Your caucus thread on Don’t Feed the Trolls was extremely revealing to us as well. LOL.
Second Hand Lion was wonderful. I saw it twice and would see it again if it were on. Great actors and good plot.
As much as I super dearly love FR and deplore being cut-off from my family here . . .
imho,
YOU, SIR, ARE WORTH A TEN THOUSAND TIME-OUTS.
Though I sincerely hope you don’t use such a method to increase my prayers for you in the future. LOL.
I thought it was great!
:D
So have a lot of other people of importance who impacted the lives of many for beyond their years on Earth.
For what it's worth, diplomatic courtesy or no, I think it was a bad idea for Pope John Paul II to kiss the Koran. I felt that way back then, still feel that way now.
Even though he wasn't declaring an ex cathedra Catholic doctrine to respect the Koran, it was still a bad idea.
Saying that's not denigrating the man, which would be a definite issue since he is no longer among us in this world. But we can still consider his actions in a positive or negative manner.
Otherwise, all the economists lambasting FDR's New Deal way after the fact would be shamed before their work even hit to stands, to make a point.
It’s a debatable question.
It would have been infra dignitatem for the procurator to embrace the language of the barbarians in any official correspondence or record of legal proceedings.
Bilingualism and multilingualism were common at that place and time, though. It’s easy to imagine some scribe standing beneath him translating back and forth to preserve the fiction of Roman indifference to the barbarians, even though Pilate and the crowd in fact spoke each other’s languages.
You made some good remarks about hate, but I want to add a nuance:
Some Protestants hate some Catholics, and vice versa. I have never heard of it being an “all or nothing” type of thing.
Good night, great thread.
Humans!
I have created nothing. Don’t attribute anything to me that is false.
I have been taught that this particular verse speaks of the nation Israel in end times and has nothing to do with Mary.
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