Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Now that you impressed yourself go and find historical Christianity that agrees with you?
Mary has replaced Israel as the people of God and is a type of the Church ,the bride of Christ.
Where Israel failed to follow the will of God ,The Blessed Mother perfectly followed the will of God.
from the words of Saint Clement
“But the Lord Christ, the fruit of the Virgin, did not pronounce the breasts of women blessed, nor selected them to give nourishment; but when the kind and loving Father had rained down the Word, Himself became spiritual nourishment to the good. O mystic marvel! The universal Father is one, and one the universal Word; and the Holy Spirit is one and the same everywhere, and one is the only virgin mother. I love to call her the Church. This mother, when alone, had not milk, because alone she was not a woman. But she is once virgin and mother—pure as a virgin, loving as a mother. And calling her children to her, she nurses them with holy milk, viz., with the Word for childhood. Therefore she had not milk; for the milk was this child fair and comely, the body of Christ, which nourishes by the Word the young brood, which the Lord Himself brought forth in throes of the flesh, which the Lord Himself swathed in His precious blood.” Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, I:6 (A.D.202).
“Now that you impressed yourself go and find historical Christianity that agrees with you?”
I have already explained Clement’s and Origen’s excesses in another reply, but let me answer this “Where Israel failed to follow the will of God ,The Blessed Mother perfectly followed the will of God” once again with scripture.
Mark 6:1-6, “And he went out from thence, and came into his own country; and his disciples follow him. And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands? Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.
4 But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.
5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them. And he marvelled because of their unbelief.”
Jesus said Mary dishonored him and because of her unbelief and others of his kin and neighbors He could not do His ministry among them. Are you saying that dishonor and unbelief were the “will of God” for Mary?
The Church decides...
from the Catechism...
129 Christians therefore read the Old Testament in the light of Christ crucified and risen. Such typological reading discloses the inexhaustible content of the Old Testament; but it must not make us forget that the Old Testament retains its own intrinsic value as Revelation reaffirmed by our Lord himself.105 Besides, the New Testament has to be read in the light of the Old. Early Christian catechesis made constant use of the Old Testament.106 As an old saying put it, the New Testament lies hidden in the Old and the Old Testament is unveiled in the New.107
130 Typology indicates the dynamic movement toward the fulfillment of the divine plan when “God [will] be everything to everyone.”108 Nor do the calling of the patriarchs and the exodus from Egypt, for example, lose their own value in God's plan, from the mere fact that they were intermediate stages.
As you well know....the scriptures did not ever build His Church ,Christ did and gave the keys to Saint Peter to be continued through Apostolic succession
So,when centuries passed and people asked what scripture was inspired by God,the Church already knew because the heard it directly from Christ and the Apostles.
The Church knew that the Old testament was reveled in the New Testament though many types fulfilled by the life of Our Blessed Lord and His Mother.
Some of our protestant brothers and sister would like us to believe that God sucked the brains out of the saints during the Bible canon process and guided the pen to decide what was and what was not inspired.
The Church ALWAYS Knew the truth before the New Testament was ever written.
Thanks.
You're misinterpreting scripture you posted and reading the Bible like it's some novel like gone with the wind.
Even most protestants don't agree with your interpretation let alone any of historical Christianity.
Jesus is talking in general and prophetically in that belief in Him will divide us even amongst our families
“You’re misinterpreting scripture you posted and reading the Bible like it’s some novel like gone with the wind.”
Did the actual event related by Mark take place or is this just a fiction?
“Jesus is talking in general and prophetically in that belief in Him will divide us even amongst our families”
Did Jesus say “But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house” in answer to the sketicism of the people “From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands? Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him”
His answer was clear and specific from the confrontation; His neighbors, His extended family and His immediate family had dishonored Him, including His mother. Because of their unbelief, He could not and did not minister among them again. Their skepticism and unbelief were the cause of His leaving. These were not platitudes and there was nothing general or prophetic about this. This was a sharp critcism of the people of Nazareth, including His family. He was speaking to and dealing with the situation at the time.
5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them. And he marvelled because of their unbelief.”
It's all about you and what you have examined and explained above 2000 plus years of teaching.
Where do I find the prophet enat in that Bible
Do you understand the meaning of humility?
Our Blessed Lord had no biological brothers and sisters.
The Bible is dangerous in the hands of the proud and the so-called biblical know it alls who would have the audacity to use scripture against the Blessed Mother and the Saints.
May God have mercy on you.
“Our Blessed Lord had no biological brothers and sisters.”
Then when Jesus says “his house” it can only mean His mother. There is no other interpretation, unless one says that Jesus is not telling the truth in answer to “Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him”
Why would Jesus “throw His mother under the bus” by telling the crowd that she (his house) like them dishonored Him if He did not mean it?
Nonsense,Dear friend!Jesus is God,His house is not limited to an earthly house of a few people
“Whoever does the will of God”, Jesus had said, “is my brother and sister, and mother” (Mk 3:35)..
Good Night ! I'll say a prayer for you One thing I have noticed is that the people who insist that Jesus rebuked mary and the He had other biological children do not exude much love towards others and are very stubborn and prideful in their heretical beliefs.
This is very telling because where there is pride there is no humility and Christ does not abide in the proud.
One thing I have noticed is that the people who insist that Jesus rebuked mary and the He had other biological children do not exude much love towards others and are very stubborn and prideful in their heretical beliefs.
This is very telling because where there is pride there is no humility and Christ does not abide in the proud.
Good Night ! I'll say a prayer for you
I belong to Church of God but I think we all worship the same Lord.
Oh, dear! Another Pentecostal! Great!
Love it.
Well, there. You've gone and done it. You've outed yourself. IRL you are the Amazing Kreskin! What an amazing mind reader you are!
What is the difference between you and all the other false prophets who get that tickled feeling when they read the scriptures?
Well, for starters, I would have to say that I have not declared myself to be a prophet, false or otherwise...
consistent historical Christianity.
LOL! Do you mean the Christianity that put demonic gargoyles on their cathedrals in hopes of warding off evil demons? There's a consistency, alright...
I sincerely hope you don't believe the lie satan tells people, in that the the Holy Spirit is leading you to teach against the Catholic Church?
I have been of the mind to leave well enough alone, but having been here on this (religion) board for the last while has changed my mind. I am most certainly against the Marian heresies, the blasphemy of co-redemtrix and co-mediatrix. If for that reason alone, yes, I am against the Roman Catholic Church.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
Much, much appreciate this thoughtful analysis and perspective.
Yeah, bureaucracies can be full of passive aggressiveness.
However, it doesn’t usually prevent them from mangling the serfs.
Maybe I’ll have to come up with a better term. I’ll continue to prayerfully ponder it.
Maybe RC ... Pentecostal . . . Lutheran . . . etc. club is about as good as I can come up with. Pondering.
Can you, dear Bro, appreciate that for so many of my Protty cohorts . . . the contention on the one hand
(A) “OUR DOGMA IS MONOLITHIC, CONSISTENT, PRISTINE, UNIFIED, HOMOGENEOUS ETC. FROM 400 YEARS [BEFORE THE ORG EXISTED] TO THIS MOMENT
and on the other hand
(B) “WE’RE A MESS. WE’VE ALWAYS BEEN A MESS. But by some list of ineffable miracles, our being an utter mess organizationally, leader-ship-wise; magicsterically, etc. etc. etc. has in no wise lessened our infallibility as the supreme everything of the Christian Church.
We cannot imagine that anyone would pretend that any organization could have it both ways. The RC club/org Can’t have it both ways.
consistent historical Christianity.
= = =
Obviously the poster was referring to the Roman Catholic org.
Given that . . . GTTM is the only authentic response remotely plausible, imho. Guffaws To The Max indeed. Seems to me that the main consistency resident in the org is the capacity and inclination to fabricate new infallible dogmas out of extremely fallible committees every so many decades or centuries.
Do you have a link like Amazon and a more complete title ref stuff for those titles, please?
Obviously, but the Protestants have no high horse either. Any who stray from the Word of God fall into confusion.
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