The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.

There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.

Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).

Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.

Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.

I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.

No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.

I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.

There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.

Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.

In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.

At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.

i THINK I've been fairly clear . . . perhaps repeatedly on all matters in that post.

I'll respond to the Mary Caricature issue yet again . . .

I consider
ALL
the
EXTRA-Biblical
THEREFORE
NONBiblical
STUFF
ABOUT
Mary's
NAME
AND
IMAGE
within,
BY,
SUPPORTED BY
Published by
The RC edifice
TO BE
AN
UNWARRANTED
BIBLICALLY
AND
HISTORICALLY
BLASPHEMOUS
IDOLATROUS
Abomination
exceedingly
OFF-THE-SCALE
OFFENSIVE
TO THE
AUTHENTIC
MARY
IF
SHE
knows
ANYTHING
about
EARTHLY
goings-on
AT ALL.

That is my perspective. I believe it is an exceedingly logical and exceedingly Biblical perspective.

The ONLY way I can logically write honorably, truthfully, Biblically about the outrageous RC edifice Mary stuff is to call it what it is--A HORRENDOUS CARICATURE. That's my reality. I happen to also believe it is Jesus' reality, The Father's reality; The Spirit's reality and The Authentic Mary's reality.

RC's hereon relentlessly insist that we start with accepting what they say about themselves instead of insisting that we start with our constructions on their constructions on reality.

This is my construction on reality regarding Mary. If folks cannot and/or will not reasonably handle my reality on that score, they are welcome to avoid exchanges with me about said topic.

imho, The RC edifice has only itself to thank for the very exceedingly reasonable and very exceedingly charitable label of "Caricature of Mary." There are a lot worse and more accurate labels that Biblical justification can be found for regarding all the "Mary Stuff" proffered by the RC edifice.

It is also thunderously obvious to a number of Prottys that all the wailing about the Caricature of Mary merely proves that some folks are over--outrageously over the line in over-focusing on Mary.

Denials will not hide that fact.

Intellectual gymnastics will not hide that fact.

Bible mangling will not hide that fact.

Personal assaults on me or any other Protty will not hide that fact.

Joya's post #39 on this thread:

LINK HERE: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2027269/posts?page=91#91

describes well the urgency and import that I feel in my heart, mind and spirit about the overwhelming outrageously inordinate focus the Caricature of Mary garners from some RC's as evidenced hereon in their discussion of the Caricature of Mary.

This quote is very apt, imho:
Therefore I say that you should not give your hearts to men, nor hold people’s persons in admiration or adulation. For by these very persons Satan shall gain entry into My people. Watch for seducers! Do you think a seducer will brandish a heresy and flaunt it before the people? He will speak words of righteousness and truth and will appear as a minister of light, declaring the Word.

AS are these lines from that same doc:,BR> If your heart is right I will keep you, if you will look constantly to Me, I will uphold you.

AS are these lines from that same doc:,BR> It was on the cross that I triumphed over all the powers of the enemy. My life shall flow through as you enter into these precious truths. Look unto Me and appropriate My life. As your eyes and desires are toward Me and you know what it is to be crucified with Me, then you shall live and your anointing shall increase. It was not in My life as I walked upon the earth but rather it was in My life as I hung upon the cross that I openly spoiled principalities and powers.

And this one:
Run not to this one or that one for the Lord has so ordained that salvation is in Him and in Him alone.

GOD AND GOD ALONE IS TO BE OUR FOCUS; OUR REFUGE; OUR SOURCE; OUR DEFENSE; OUR HIGH TOWER; OUR GUIDANCE; OUR COMFORT; OUR ALL IN ALL.

By Comparison, ALL ELSE is hideous Caricature--whether about Mary or any other lesser anything.

Those who fail to see this, imho, fail to see crucial Biblical TRUTH.

In any case, this is my perspective. If folks don't wish to deal with my perspective, I encourage them to use their scroll button liberally. My posts are not exactly obscure and so similar to everyone else's that one is forced to read them by mistake.

(Exo 20:4 KJV) Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

(Lev 26:1 KJV) Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

(Deu 4:16 KJV) Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,

(Deu 4:23 KJV) Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee.

(Deu 4:25 KJV) When thou shalt beget children, and children’s children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evil in the sight of the LORD thy God, to provoke him to anger:

(Deu 5:8 KJV) Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:

(2 Ki 21:7 KJV) And he set a graven image of the grove that he had made in the house, of which the LORD said to David, and to Solomon his son, In this house, and in Jerusalem, which I have chosen out of all tribes of Israel, will I put my name for ever:

(Isa 40:19 KJV) The workman melteth a graven image, and the goldsmith spreadeth it over with gold, and casteth silver chains.

(Isa 40:20 KJV) He that is so impoverished that he hath no oblation chooseth a tree that will not rot; he seeketh unto him a cunning workman to prepare a graven image, that shall not be moved.

(Isa 44:9 KJV) They that They that make a

(Isa 44:10 KJV) Who hath formed a god, or molten a graven image that is profitable for nothing ? [This is a declarative statement]

(Isa 44:15 KJV) Then shall it be for a man to burn: for he will take thereof, and warm himself; yea, he kindleth it, and baketh bread; yea, he maketh a god, and worshippeth it; he maketh it a graven image, and falleth down thereto.

(Isa 44:17 KJV) And the residue thereof he maketh a god, even his graven image: he falleth down unto it, and worshippeth it, and prayeth unto it, and saith, Deliver me; for thou art my god.

(Isa 45:20 KJV) Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.

(Isa 48:5 KJV) I have even from the beginning declared it to thee; before it came to pass I showed it thee: lest thou shouldest say, Mine idol hath done them, and my graven image, and my molten image, hath commanded them.

(Jer 10:14 KJV) Every man is brutish in his knowledge: every founder is confounded by the graven image: for his molten image is falsehood, and there is no breath in them.

(Jer 51:17 KJV) Every man is brutish by his knowledge; every founder is confounded by the graven image: for his molten image is falsehood, and there is no breath in them.

(Nahum 1:14 KJV) And the LORD hath given a commandment concerning thee, that no more of thy name be sown: out of the house of thy gods will I cut off the graven image and the molten image: I will make thy grave; for thou art vile.

(Hab 2:18 KJV) What profiteth the graven image that the maker thereof hath graven it; the molten image, and a teacher of lies, that the maker of his work trusteth therein, to make dumb idols?

Statues of Mary are Graven Images

Statues of Mary?

Both would be Scripturally anathema . . .

However . . . I wonder if there are any statistics on the

1. Statues of Mary

2. Statues of Jesus

in RC institutions.

An interesting question.

I wonder how many RC congregations are without ANY statues. Are there any?

Are there any without a Mary statue? A Jesus statue?

What about the icons?

Someone has to have done such statistics once upon a time.

I'd venture that in Mexico and the Philippines, there's not a single RC congregation without a Mary statue.

There are likely some without a Jesus statue.

Just my guess, however.

I cannot comprehend how any Believer would tolerate the intellectual gymnastics necessary to ignore the verses you listed sufficiently to erect such statues and once erected, to treat them as anything other than abhorrent disgust or revulsion. I'm sure in Asia, you've been . . . invited to visit Buddhist temples, maybe Confucian temples and Daoist temples. I suppose there can be a kind of reasonable reason to visit such and I have no great judgment of others about it. However, for me, it troubled my spirit sufficiently that I never willingly freely agreed to visit such after the first 2-3 times or so. I guess some "Christians" think that "Christian" idols are more "sanctified" than pagan idols. What balderdash. To even IMAGINE that God would have such a perspective strikes me as a blasphemous notion. Perhaps the learned & Holy Spirit led A-G will assert that I'm off the wall or writing in hyperbole again. I don't know but I'll prayerfully ponder whatever perspective she has on it.

[Haydock: Our Saviour does not here wish to deny what the woman had said, but rather to confirm it; indeed how could he deny, as Calvin impiously maintained, that his mother was blessed? By these words, he only wishes to tell his auditors what great advantage they might obtain by attending to his words. For the blessed Virgin, as St. Augustine says, was more happy in having our Saviour in her heart and affections, than in having conceived him in her womb]

LOL. Calvin never denied Mary was blessed.

And neither has any Protestant denied that Mary was blessed.

And please note in this ridiculous exposition that once again, it is ALL ABOUT MARY when in fact, the verses are ALL ABOUT BELIEVERS.

I believe you are correct. A simple reading is always the best, and the passage seems to be self explanatory on it's face. I believe it is important to read the passage in it's context though, as that would seem to confirm Christ's exhortation to the crowd to hear the Word and to keep it. He had just cast out a demon, and others were tempting Him for a sign. Christ seems a bit exasperated that they accuse Him as an agent of the Devil when perfoming a miracle, and then turn around and ask for a sign to confirm Himself. The interaction with the woman in the crowd is in the midst of that action, as can plainly be seen in 29 when He answers the call for a sign, and then goes on to condemn them for not repenting. The passage containing the interruption of the woman and His reply to her serves best as a device placing emphasis upon the context of His speech; That being an exhortation to repent from wickedness (lest the cast out demon return and bring with his friends):

Luk 11:15 But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils.
Luk 11:16 And others, tempting him, sought of him a sign from heaven.
Luk 11:17 But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth.
Luk 11:18 If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub.
Luk 11:19 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges.
Luk 11:20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.
Luk 11:21 When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace:
Luk 11:22 But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armor wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.
Luk 11:23 He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.
Luk 11:24 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
Luk 11:25 And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.
Luk 11:26 Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.
Luk 11:27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
Luk 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
Luk 11:29 And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonah the prophet.
Luk 11:30 For as Jonah was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation.
Luk 11:31 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
Luk 11:32 The men of Nineveh shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and, behold, a greater than Jonah is here.

Haydock's reasoning, and Petronski's defense thereof might hold some weight if there were not a confirming witness in the very same book:

Again in Luke 8, under similar circumstances, Jesus is speaking and is interupted by the notice that His family had arrived, but were having trouble getting in to see him:

Luk 8:19 Then came to him his mother and his brethren, and could not come at him for the press.
Luk 8:20 And it was told him by certain which said, Thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to see thee.
Luk 8:21 And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.

Again, He purposefully and plainly denies His blood family in preference of His Spirit family. That is not meant to denigrate His mother and brothers, but to give a greater importance to the Kingdom, and to His work.

Notice also the language of Luke 8:16-17

Luk 8:16 No man, when he hath lighted a candle, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth it under a bed; but setteth it on a candlestick, that they which enter in may see the light.
Luk 8:17 For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad.

and the very same language in Luke 11:33-36

Luk 11:33 No man, when he hath lighted a candle, putteth it in a secret place, neither under a bushel, but on a candlestick, that they which come in may see the light.
Luk 11:34 The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness.
Luk 11:35 Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness.
Luk 11:36 If thy whole body therefore be full of light, having no part dark, the whole shall be full of light, as when the bright shining of a candle doth give thee light.

No doubt there is a deeper meaning and linkage between the two (Luke 8 and Luke 11), perhaps prophetic, but undoubtedly *not* about Mary.

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