Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Exactly. But since they don’t believe in sola fide, you can’t help but wonder if they understand what salvation really entails.
Once again, you seem to think that Catholics are Sola Scriptura, we believe in Tradition.
Whoa. Heresy, heresy, heresy...leading good people to hell with it, too.
Say Whut????
Is this an example of more RC edifice fantasies?
I agree that you MUST do works, ONCE YOU ARE SAVED. These are the works that God planned for you from the foundations of the world. What happens if someone makes a deathbed confession? Does he go to hell because he didn’t get to do his works? I don’t think so.
As I asked, show me Sola Scriptura in Scripture that I might believe.
Please show me, Sola Scriptura and Sola Fides in Scripture that I might believe.
1. It’s quite conceivable that the personal satisfaction is built on yet another RC fantasy.
2. I have no need or interest in personally attacking anyone hereon. We are supposedly all Conservatives. More than that, supposedly all Christians.
3. I’m not at all bashful about attacking fantasies, idiocies, idolatries, blasphemies and outrageous heresies. If there is, as seems to be the case, a chronic RC incapacity &/or unwillingness to distinguish between
persons
vs
ideas, beliefs, habits, dogma, organizations, fantasies, . . . I can only suggest some colleagues of mine might be of help in sorting such things out.
4. It’s my understanding that it’s the thin-skinned who are out of place on an open forum. I suspect that the door out is in roughly the same place as the door in.
Please show me Sola Scriptura and Sole Fides in the Bible that I might believe.
but, but, you’ve just MISINTERPRETED it, Dr. E. That’s not what it REALLY says. It’s all your fault, LOL.
Do you mean that large, complicated structure that holds the fullness of Christian faith? Better than the facade on non-Catholicism.
I believe the Catholic Church (Roman Branch) stopped believing in Sola Scripture when it became inconvenient to their expansion program. Thus the invention of "Revealed" Tradition became necessary.
I suppose your collegues can find the Scriptures that support Sola Scriptura but I’m sure that I wouldn’t accept their word over the word of Christ either, sorry.
Please, I beg you, show me Sola Scriptura in the Bible that I might believe!
Sometimes occasionally.
Sometimes often.
I’m USUALLY conscious when I write, however.
You mean . . . apart from Holy Spirit within me?
All I ask is that you show me Sola Scriptura in the Bible.
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