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The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007

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To: 1000 silverlings
They complain that they don’t get answers from us. they get plenty of answers, they just don’t like, and actually reject, scriptural truth.

Yes, if they don't like the answers they get, they need to stop asking the questions, because they are going to get the same answer from Christians over and over again, faith and faith alone in the saving work of Christ saves the lost sinner.

6,541 posted on 06/17/2008 1:42:18 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration (Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Christus)
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To: fortheDeclaration

Gosh, that isn’t from the Bible! It sounds like just another person enamoured with his own opinion.


6,542 posted on 06/17/2008 1:43:31 PM PDT by tiki (True Christians will not deliberately slander or misrepresent others or their beliefs)
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To: MarDav

Are you ignoring me? Will you answer the questions?


6,543 posted on 06/17/2008 1:48:57 PM PDT by tiki (True Christians will not deliberately slander or misrepresent others or their beliefs)
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To: fortheDeclaration

Quite a site you’ve found, although inaccurate in almost every fashion. You’d think, though, amidst the hysterical claims of the Pope being the antiChrist, they’d at least have an up to date picture in place.

How can you focus your hate properly if you’ve got the picture wrong?


6,544 posted on 06/17/2008 1:49:29 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: DungeonMaster

Why not show us the passage that claims sola scriptura? And the one that says sola fides.

I don’t think that that request could be clearer.


6,545 posted on 06/17/2008 1:55:11 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: DungeonMaster

Why not show us the passage that claims sola scriptura? And the one that says sola fides.

I don’t think that that request could be clearer.


6,546 posted on 06/17/2008 1:55:29 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr; kosta50

Please note we are comparing (NAB) Psalms 69:9 with John 7:5.


6,547 posted on 06/17/2008 1:57:21 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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To: DungeonMaster

What I am getting at is that it is either Sola Scriptura and it is obvious in the Bible, and if it is, then show me where it is so that I might believe it.

You seem to want it both ways, Sola Scriptura and tradition of men, mostly since the 16th century, while disparaging Catholics for admitting that they accept Scripture as inspired and important but that Tradition from the time of the Apostle’s is somehow bogus. Tradition cannot contradict the Bible, BTW, because the Bible was written on
Tradition and canonized by comparing it to Tradition to see if it met all the criteria.

Many Protestants rely on Luther and Calvin as if they were God, Himself speaking and naysay the words of the Apostles and the early Christians who actually lived what we only read about.

As far as I can see, from the Sola Scriptura crowd everything spoken outside the Bible to support the faith is bogus and therefore so are Luther, Calvin, that Scottish guy, Spurgeon and any other Protestant that is quoted because it can’t meet the definition of Scripture alone.

If you accept Scripture alone then you should be able to quote strictly from the Bible to defend any of your beliefs and it will be clear to anyone who reads it that it agrees with your assessment of it.

“Only” is exclusive of everyone and everything, so if you say you believe that then show it and argue solely from the Bible. When you take a verse from the Bible and interprete it by your own understanding you are adding “your own understanding” and that doesn’t meet the criteria. Then it would be Scripture alone, plus opinion. It is either Scripture alone or it isn’t, it is as simple as that.


6,548 posted on 06/17/2008 2:05:56 PM PDT by tiki (True Christians will not deliberately slander or misrepresent others or their beliefs)
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To: tiki
I also don’t hate non-Catholics but I have complete disgust for a few of them.

Well I do too. Catholics, Protestants, and "none of the above". However, I don't use an all inclusive plural pronoun "they" to describe the "few".

No one here is a mindreader and can not be expected to understand your "they" is limited to a few.

In any event it was a hate filled rant directed to "they".

6,549 posted on 06/17/2008 2:14:14 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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To: OLD REGGIE

We aren’t allowed to make it personal.


6,550 posted on 06/17/2008 2:20:52 PM PDT by tiki (True Christians will not deliberately slander or misrepresent others or their beliefs)
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To: OLD REGGIE

It is indeed quite interesting.

Ps 69:
Let those who wait for you, LORD of hosts, not be shamed through me. Let those who seek you, God of Israel, not be disgraced through me
8
For your sake I bear insult, shame covers my face.
9
I have become an outcast to my kin, a stranger to my mother’s children.
10
5 Because zeal for your house consumes me, I am scorned by those who scorn you.
11
I have wept and fasted, but this led only to scorn.

Well, the context is that this is the life that David was leading at the moment. Some of the things follow through, yet not all do. Psalms says that he is alienated from his mother’s sons.

John 7:

3
So his brothers 2 said to him, “Leave here and go to Judea, so that your disciples also may see the works you are doing.
4
No one works in secret if he wants to be known publicly. If you do these things, manifest yourself to the world.”
5
For his brothers did not believe in him.

There have been numerous discussions about adelphos etc., but look at it this way. There is nothing here about Jesus being alienated from anyone here except the Jews of Judea who were trying to kill him.

Therefore there is not a complete one-for-one comparison. Good try, though.


6,551 posted on 06/17/2008 2:22:16 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr
St. Juvenal, Bishop of Jerusalem, at the Council of Chalcedon (451), made known to the Emperor Marcian and Pulcheria, who wished to possess the body of the Mother of God, that Mary died in the presence of all the Apostles, but that her tomb, when opened, upon the request of St. Thomas, was found empty; wherefrom the Apostles concluded that the body was taken up to heaven.

from http://mb-soft.com/believe/txn/assumpt.htm


It is interesting to note that the site you chose at least has the integrity to acknowledge the lack of solid information concerning the "death and assumption of Mary".

When you publish fiction you really should identify it as such.

Regarding the day, year, and manner of Our Lady's death, nothing certain is known. The earliest known literary reference to the Assumption is found in the Greek work De Obitu S. Dominae. Catholic faith, however, has always derived our knowledge of the mystery from Apostolic Tradition. Epiphanius (d. 403) acknowledged that he knew nothing definite about it (Haer., lxxix, 11). The dates assigned for it vary between three and fifteen years after Christ's Ascension. Two cities claim to be the place of her departure: Jerusalem and Ephesus. Common consent favours Jerusalem, where her tomb is shown; but some argue in favour of Ephesus. The first six centuries did not know of the tomb of Mary at Jerusalem.

The belief in the corporeal assumption of Mary is founded on the apocryphal treatise De Obitu S. Dominae, bearing the name of St. John, which belongs however to the fourth or fifth century. It is also found in the book De Transitu Virginis, falsely ascribed to St. Melito of Sardis, and in a spurious letter attributed to St. Denis the Areopagite. If we consult genuine writings in the East, it is mentioned in the sermons of St. Andrew of Crete, St. John Damascene, St. Modestus of Jerusalem and others. In the West, St. Gregory of Tours (De gloria mart., I, iv) mentions it first. The sermons of St. Jerome and St. Augustine for this feast, however, are spurious. St. John of Damascus (P. G., I, 96) thus formulates the tradition of the Church of Jerusalem:

Pious Fiction

6,552 posted on 06/17/2008 2:32:35 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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To: papertyger

HO! That’s really a hoot. RC’s just don’t like it when their sacred cows are discovered and brought out into the open. It’s GOD who WANTS us to evangelize, yes, even to evangelize Catholics who are going down the wrong road with so many heresies.


6,553 posted on 06/17/2008 2:37:15 PM PDT by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: tiki; DungeonMaster
Where did you say that Paul speaks of Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura? I can’t seem to find it.

The Assumption Of Mary 7:14
6,554 posted on 06/17/2008 2:42:17 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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To: 1000 silverlings

Boy, truer words were never spoken.


6,555 posted on 06/17/2008 2:55:58 PM PDT by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: MarkBsnr

Yep, and a lot of it is on the RC side of the river.


6,556 posted on 06/17/2008 2:57:27 PM PDT by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Amazing. Mary sits higher on her throne than Jesus does on His, I see. Where did this come from?


6,557 posted on 06/17/2008 3:01:04 PM PDT by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: OLD REGGIE

The only reason your post is humorous is that you seem to think that I rely on Sola Scriptura, I don’t.

It is the Sola Scriptura crowd who can’t seem to support Scripture alone from...well, Scripture alone.


6,558 posted on 06/17/2008 3:01:11 PM PDT by tiki (True Christians will not deliberately slander or misrepresent others or their beliefs)
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To: MarkBsnr
Well, the context is that this is the life that David was leading at the moment. Some of the things follow through, yet not all do. Psalms says that he is alienated from his mother’s sons.

I imagine you dissavow the Douay-Rheims as a valid Bible. Psalms 69:22 Instead they put gall in my food; for my thirst they gave me vinegar.

Does this verse prophesy Jesus or David? Or, is it better that you sift through Psalms 69 verse by verse throwing some into the "David bucket" and some in the "Jesus bucket".

Better to ask for help.

Hint: Ignore help from one who doesn't recognize the difference between John 7 and John 19.

6,559 posted on 06/17/2008 3:01:40 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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To: DungeonMaster

AMEN, DM, AMEN.


6,560 posted on 06/17/2008 3:06:14 PM PDT by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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