Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
I’ve decided to stop ignoring you for some reason. Did you put that little list together all by yourself?
Do you have anything less stale in you repertoire?
Have you ever considered writing children’s books?
***Where did you say that Paul speaks of Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura? I can’t seem to find it.***
Try Luther’s Bible Rom 3:28. Apparently ‘allein’ somehow slithered into place there.
It certainly isn’t always the spreading of “good news” (the meaning of the word Gospel).
A lot of the “spreading” is telling Catholics they are doomed—I tell you-—DOOMED.
My son killed the biggest rattler yesterday that I’ve ever seen. It was so long and so fat, it looked like a boa constricter but it wasn’t, no matter the appearance, it was still a rattler.
Is that prose or poetry? What grade would you expect to receive for that response.
I would think it would be according to who is doing the sanctification. You? God, in your opinion? Ego in disguised as faith?
I would also refuse to bow and scrape to an incomplete or even false religion and religiousity, that is why I am Catholic.
***Where did you say that Paul speaks of Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura? I can’t seem to find it.
The bible certainly speaks of honoring the scriptures rather than looking for every possible wiggle room to invent doctrine. It’s similar to the way a liberal treats the Constitution.***
Ah so. The claim is sola fide and sola scripture; Scripture does not support either. Did you say that you were a Bible Believer? I thought that they could not add anything to Scripture.
I think you may be thinking of that “straw” edifice that has remained for almost 2000 yrs. I understand that someone could find it utterly amazing that something that they disparage and built on Christ (straw?) could withstand the world for so long. Oh, yeah, I remember! “The gates of hell shall not prevail.” It is nice to know Jesus’ promise and actually live in a time where history has proven to this date that Jesus wasn’t making an idle promise. Not that I would ever think such a thing but there are some out there, you know.
It is because they can’t! And there are 2 posters who I fully believe are blondes.
May I answer, I don’t know if he read it but if he did he didn’t understand it.
If I were him I would say that I hadn’t read it so that I didn’t look quite as ignorant.
Please show me where it says that without any ambiguity.
Well, if we are going to have discussions with them using Scripture then maybe we should insist that they use pre-Luther Bibles.
It is the bounden duty of every Christian to pray against Antichrist, and as to what Antichrist is no sane man ought to raise a question. If it be not the Popery in the Church of Rome there is nothing in the world that can be called by that name. It wounds Christ, robs Christ of His glory, puts sacramental efficacy in the place of His atonement, and lifts a piece of bread in the place of the Saviour....If we pray against it, because it is against Him, we shall love the persons though we hate their errors; we shall love their souls, though we loathe and detest their dogmas....”
…….C. H Spurgeon (All Roads Lead To Rome, Dorcheste House, 1991, pg. 183).
http://biblebelievers.net/Romanism/kjcroman.htm
***Well, if we are going to have discussions with them using Scripture then maybe we should insist that they use pre-Luther Bibles.***
No, no, no. In order to give them a fighting chance, they wish us to tie half our theology behind our backs, concede the Luther Bible and throw out everything after the year 300 that the Church has done.
Scripture is sola until their pet theologies are proven wrong and then it is discarded or redefined.
You want me to show you where the bible says "honor the bible". So if it doesn't say those exact words then it doesn't intend that it should be honored?
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