Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
INDEED.
As I was prayerfully pondering the strident RC’s this morning . . . it seemed as though The Lord dropped this thought into my mind/heart/spirit . . .
SOME OF THE RC’S KNOW THEY WORSHIP MARY.
THEY DEFEND IT AS THEIR RIGHT. It has been graced by their club. Their egos enjoy it. They will continue to fiercely defend it. Their pride exalts in it. Short of the mercy of God . . . not at all a sure thing in such a context . . . some of those will not relax their death grip on such idolatries though it cost them eternal life.
None of that is predestination.
***No, just stating the facts, hell or heaven, true Gospel (sola fide) vs the false Gospel, (faith plus works), you choose your own eternal destination. ***
Your Scripture differs significantly from mine. James 2, as well as the multiple verses I gave you from Paul condemns sola fide. Them’s the facts. My faith is the faith of the early Church. Yours came from whence?
***Prove it. My Scripture indicates that Jesus spent the most time on teaching how people were to behave, how to come to God and eternal salvation.
Actually, He preached more on the subject of hell than He did on the subject of Heaven. ***
Ah yes, the wrathful, jealous and sullen god that it was the pleasure of the Reformation to create. Repeat it all you like, it’s untrue.
***No, you passed judgement on yourself by stating you rejected the true Gospel. ***
Head on back and reread your posts. 1 Cor 13:
13
So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
Let’s see. Which do you demonstrate here?
God's word provides us with no correct second or "third choice."
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." -- John 14:6
Can you see how "Gentle Lady" could be acceptable but "Gentile Lady" would be false?
The third choice is that your first and second choices are a false dichotomy....and you are ignorant about Catholicism or deliberately misrepresenting it.
Anyone intelligent enough to know sola fide is not Biblical.
“James 2”
I’m curious, when James says in Acts 15:24, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:” (28-29)”For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well”, isn’t he telling the Gentile churchs that their salvation is by faith, not works?
***)*** Show me chapter and verse. I have already given you verse which forbids faith alone.
It won’t be my judgement, it will be God’s and it is laid out very clearly in Rev.20.
You haven’t given me any verses that prove faith alone because they don’t exist! ***
Is James removed from your Scripture? He must be.
Titus 2:
11
2 For the grace of God has appeared, saving all
12
and training us to reject godless ways and worldly desires and to live temperately, justly, and devoutly in this age,
13
as we await the blessed hope, the appearance 3 of the glory of the great God and of our savior Jesus Christ,
14
who gave himself for us to deliver us from all lawlessness and to cleanse for himself a people as his own, eager to do what is good.
If one does not what is good, then one is lost.
***Now, stop pestering me with your nonsense.***
Only after your feet return to the Way.
***As for the scriptures that state that it is only by faith that you must be saved they are Rom.4:5-6, Eph.2:8-9, Tit.3:5, Gal.3:21 to name just a few.***
Jesus says that we must have faith; He also says that we must do or else we are condemned.
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
However . . . no amount of Scriptures and no amount of explanation and no amount of undoubted personal experiences will faze those addicted to
idol worship . . . and to getting their words from God
through the political power-mongering elitist committee charitably called the magicsterical by some I know.
Of course one of their alternate preferred routes confirming their idolatrous sensibilities and preferences is to hear from “God” via the white hankies.
When it comes to doctrine and the mention thereof in the Bible.....oh skip it.
did you read ftd's links? Do you believe you have an assurance of your salvation if you faithfully recite the rosary 15 minutes a day?
Copied a typo, but it's fixed in my list now.
***[***I am not the one ‘judging you’ the word of God is.***]
Ah. Bibliolatry. Do you worship the Bible?
No, the God of the Bible, not the God of the Roman Catholic Church. ***
Unless you worship the Bible as a god, how can you believe the Bible can judge me?
***No, it comes from misreading the Bible and believing what the RCC tells you. ***
The Church of Jesus Christ reads the Bible the way that they have taught me and I have pointed out numerous errors in your interpretation.
*** ***I do note that you call yourself a Catholic and not a Christian.***]
Do you have examples?
How is this,
However, I will answer, as all good Catholics ought.) ***
One of the few; I refer to myself as belonging to the Church of Jesus Christ much more of the time.
***For someone with nothing more to say to me, you are extremely verbose.
Well, stop posting your nonsense to me. ***
After you posted that to me, you then posted four in a row without me answering you. The record is clear, as is the level of Christianity that you demonstrate that you understand.
***Ofcourse, if I tell you the truth of your eternal future you will get rattled again. ***
You’d be a riot at the Last Comic Standing competition.
***Your own Bible has saved, not being saved. You even reject your own Bible! ***
I use the online NAB. Which version do you use?
***I prefer to have a good knowledge of what I am saying, good spelling and grammar and good logic and reason.
Keep working at it. It might come together some day.***
As we both know, age is not a guarantor. :)
***Yes. I thanked you, appreciated your effort, and agreed with you. I have no more flesh to give.***
I appreciate that and am satisfied with the pound that I have.
Whyuhhlllll
Bess that lil ol pea pickin’ heart.
That’s sho nuff setch an
erudite, lofty, . . . expanded . . . glorious-mirrored-image, wonderous perspective.
. . . .
I can hear it in the fossilized halls of the Vatican, now:
“I thank God that I’m not like that publican, sinner over there . . . MYYYYYYYYYYYY spelling, robes, works, idolatries are SANCTIFIED, pure as Mary’s hanky, pristine, approved and sealed by the magicsterical . . . “
“MY spelling, works, idolatries, distinctives are ROMAN—which means automatically correct, perfect, pristine, better-than, lap-of-Mary-bound . . . “
“The unwashed Prottys will have to do, at best, with a trillion years in purgatory . . . after which IIIIIIIIII will have moved on to ruling galaxies, no doubt. I might even become Mary’s right hand hanky bearer.”
Of course not. Your either/ors are still false dichotomies.
Do you believe you have an assurance of your salvation if you faithfully recite the rosary 15 minutes a day?
Show it to me in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, not a sales brochure.
Faith by reason?
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