Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
You should take time off and come back. Don’t be driven out by the hate.
**GASP**
Quel horreur!
Well what's left to do when you accept the authority of the Bible, then deny the teaching authority it provides for?
What of the millions of American protestants who yesterday celebrated Father’s Day?
What about Acts 7:2, where Stephen refers to “our father Abraham,” or in Romans 9:10, where Paul speaks of “our father Isaac?”
Phonics instruction. It's really more effective than word recognition.
Oh yeah, and Christians who know the difference between reason and endorphins, they can usually distinguish between what they think they see and what's really there.
I'm on a roll. Ask me another question.
It’s part of the “drive them nuts” strategy: not engaging in actual discourse as much as attempting to, yes, push buttons and otherwise drive Catholics off.
"What Would Farrakan Say?"
And it all makes perfect sense.
Well done.
Very clever.
And a lot healthier than another response I observed.
Squiggly things on a screen are important, at times, somewhat.
They are still just little squggly things on a screen.
Mat 23:9-10 Call none your father ... Neither be ye called masters, &c. The meaning is, that our Father in heaven is incomparably more to be regarded, than any father upon earth: and no master is to be followed, who would lead us away from Christ. But this does not hinder but that we are by the law of God to have a due respect both for our parents and spiritual fathers, (1 Corinthians iv. 15,) and for our masters and teachers. (Challoner)
--- This name was a title of dignity: the presidents of the assembly of twenty-three judges where so called; the second judge of the sanhedrim, &c. (Bible de Vence)
--- Nothing is here forbidden but the contentious divisions, and self-assumed authority, of such as make themselves leaders and favourers of schisms and sects; as Donatus, Arius, Luther, Calvin, and innumerable other of very modern date. But by no means the title of father, attributed by the faith, piety, and confidence of good people, to their directors; for, St. Paul tells the Corinthians, that he is their only spiritual Father: If you have 10,000 instructors in Christ, yet not many Fathers. (1 Corinthians iv. 15.)
Is your home affected by the flood? I pray not.
And Papertyger will get one for Scriptural Tourette's Syndrome.
I was up until 0330 on an assignment (cue spy music) and I am totally NOT responsible today for anything.
Please do not use potty language or references to potty language on the Religion Forum.
Naw. Most of us enjoy energetic discourse. You think we’d enjoy pontificating to our mirrors or the choir?
It’s more fun to keep those deeply entrenched in deep and hyper-narrow channels of thought and fantasies about reality, around.
Somewhat akin to watching critters in a maze in a psych lab.
Trouble is, this maze is of THEIR OWN creation.
However, for those determined to try and remake FR in their own exclusisionist image . . . where their construction on reality is the only one tolerated remotely charitably and with full privileges . . . perhaps a more comfortable venue would be better for their blood pressure.
When the kitchen one has made begins to get too hot because, horror of horrors, it’s used for C O O K I N G . . . maybe it is time to take to the pool, instead.
Besides, if a thin-skin really is a part of the Vatican prescribed uniform of the day—as so often seems to be the case . . . wouldn’t Prottys be heretical to try and prevent RC’s from running screaming from the kitchen?
Always opus out
I have a “no-gibberish” rule. Sorry.
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